Annealing Rifle Cases - Why & How do You do it.

[Apollo]

As the topic says and away from where this came up in someone else's topic.

I started it when I entered Benchrest Shooting (500 Metres) and was looking for an edge, any edge to improve plus stay in the top dozen shooters that I enjoyed being with but not slip down the ranks.

I use a AMP Induction Annealer, expensive these days but it's great. Have heard of many different ways that people anneal cases. Some very hit n miss.
These days I anneal every reload. I have some 1970's .243 Winchester Cases that have been reloaded about 6 times but then I shot one of those and the neck separated from the case...easy fix pull the rest, anneal and now a few reloads later.

I once thought of buying a twin torch Bench Mark Annealer but the AMP wasn't much extra.

Some people simply use a Socket and a Butane Burner with ????? Results...

What's your view or like me many years ago, who cares....until you Brass Cases start to get very expensive and maybe hard to obtain.

[in2anity]

Just bought myself one of these:

Kase Annealr

B47DCC30-FD8B-4A0D-8A8B-04232D3C2494.jpeg (1.43 MiB) Viewed 4766 times

I shoot Service, so benchrest precision is lost on me. Nevertheless I often seat rounds with the Lee hand press and an automatic powder dispenser, and I can literally “feel” when neck tension starts to go astray. Happens after recycling quite a few times.

The hand annealing approach with the dish of water on a turntable is not uniform. It might rejuvenate, but I have felt the necks just aren’t that uniform. Human error I suppose.

This machine was $500 and whilst it’s early days, the results seem promising. I annealed some x8 recycled 303 brass and seating feels good - nice and consistent, much better than the state they were in. Certainly breathed some life into the old brass.

In2.

[Larry]

The AMP is a very good machine. what I like about induction Annealing is that the amount of energy that you apply to the brass is nearly if not absolutely the same case after case after case.
I have made my own induction annealing machine you can adjust the case position in the coil and the length of time that the energy is applied for down to the hundredth of a second. It actually has one advantage over the base model AMP and that is that you place the case on a platform in a guide then start the pre programed time of annealing at the end a trap door is activated and the annealed case is drooped into an awaiting container. You simply place another case on the platform. The speed is greatly increased. Others have made automated case feeds for such machines so that they can operate completely unattended.

I cant say that I have seen an improvement on the target though due to annealing. Certainly I have had much more consistent case resizing however.

[in2anity]

I honestly think tight, uniform neck tension is still of a concern for jumped pills, in magazine fed rifles where the mag length is the determining factor, or chambers with long throats unsuited to your short pill. Nonetheless I don’t want to start a discussion about this though, we been over and over it many times before - all I’m saying is annealing to achieve that tight, “new-brass-like” neck tension is still relevant to such guns.

[TassieTiger]

The AMP is a very good machine. what I like about induction Annealing is that the amount of energy that you apply to the brass is nearly if not absolutely the same case after case after case.
I have made my own induction annealing machine you can adjust the case position in the coil and the length of time that the energy is applied for down to the hundredth of a second. It actually has one advantage over the base model AMP and that is that you place the case on a platform in a guide then start the pre programed time of annealing at the end a trap door is activated and the annealed case is drooped into an awaiting container. You simply place another case on the platform. The speed is greatly increased. Others have made automated case feeds for such machines so that they can operate completely unattended.

I cant say that I have seen an improvement on the target though due to annealing. Certainly I have had much more consistent case resizing however.

Is there a potential issue with induction in relation to metal conductivity ? It would not be nominally uniform ? And what about where cases are not uniform in side wall thickness - wouldnt induction cause thinner side to get much hotter ?
I’m curious...

[Larry]

I honestly think tight, uniform neck tension is still of a concern for jumped pills, in magazine fed rifles where the mag length is the determining factor, or chambers with long throats unsuited to your short pill. Nonetheless I don’t want to start a discussion about this though, we been over and over it many times before - all I’m saying is annealing to achieve that tight, “new-brass-like” neck tension is still relevant to such guns.

Your right neck tension is another discussion a very worthwhile one non the less. Im not sure tight is the best word consistent but light is what I would be aiming for. I have seen some very good videos where people are using calibrated pin gauges as mandrels as a last step to set the inside neck dimension. It seems like a very good process to me.

[Apollo]

Annealing cases for neck tension is for me very much the reason to anneal in the first place. Consistent neck tension.

I use an Arbor Press for Neck Sizing and Bullet Seating. The feel even though my seating one has a Dial Gauge it's all down to feel. If it doesn't feel right it gets marked for culling.

[Larry]

Tassie good questions which I have never seen raised before and dont know the answers other than in a practical observed way. There are a couple of ways induction machines can work. I have made both. one is a copper coil with the case placed in the middle the other is a flux concentrator which is made from a ferite material and the copper coils are wound around this creating a current to flow. when a metal is placed in the gap.

Conductivity will have effect but I think it is more of an averaged thing of what is placed in the field. I think the same answer to this applies to your other question about uniform wall thickness. That at least in brass the thermal dissipation or conduction is so great that hot spots are not formed they propergate out into the brass so quickly. Heating the neck / shoulder junction of a 308 for 5 seconds can turn the neck cherry red too hot for annealing purposes but in less than 5 min the case has cooled enough to be handled. On the flip side the heat doesn't get too hot further down the case making the case too soft and dangerous to use.

The thinner walled brass certainly takes less time to heat I noticed that in the Winchester Vs Lapua settings that i had my unit set to and even then noticed some more inconsistency in the Winchester brass obtaining a different co lour in some case to others which translates to different temperatures reached. So given all that I think that you would be right if case necks were truly that inconsistent in neck wall thickness.

I use the thermal paint to set up the timer and a dark room as I dont want to see any colour change take place in the brass just on the thermal paint changing state.

[TassieTiger]

Very very interesting - thanks Larry.

[in2anity]

I'm not sure tight is the best word consistent but light is what I would be aiming for.

Sure, if you're slow fire breech loading. But not for magazine-fed, fast fire details. I feel uncomfortable about very light neck tension when one is assertively feeding the rounds from a magazine, especially in some antiquated designs - I've seen bullet setback in the flesh, and it simply destroys your groups, not to mention being an elusive problem to diagnose. Moral of the story, you need to take it on a case-by-case basis... really depends on your application.

[marksman]

I honestly think tight, uniform neck tension is still of a concern for jumped pills, in magazine fed rifles where the mag length is the determining factor, or chambers with long throats unsuited to your short pill. Nonetheless I don’t want to start a discussion about this though, we been over and over it many times before - all I’m saying is annealing to achieve that tight, “new-brass-like” neck tension is still relevant to such guns.

this is true IMO

l anneal at first prep by socket and gas torch and may never do it again for the life of the cases, l have counted up to 20 shots per case for some that are even fire formed from one shape to another

l usually only wet tumble or clean my cases after first prep or if l do anneal again, l dont like the dryness of the inside necks

l also have a dial indicator on my arbor press but can tell just by feel if the case necks are any stiffer ect... this does show there are differences

my thoughts are that the more your cases are worked the more your neck tensions will vary, reducing 1/2 the neck by .002" with a bushing die does not over work the neck of the case

the lee factory crimp is supposed to take the edge off neck tension annealing worry l like it for jumping bullets in factory chambers

my 22 dasher has a very tight fitted neck, .008" neck wall thickness reducing the need to worry about neck tension and annealing, the bullet is jammed, the round is single fed so no worries about setback, one way to forget about having to anneal, l could mag feed these rounds though

anyway its what l think about it

[Larry]

Sure, if you're slow fire breech loading. But not for magazine-fed, fast fire details. I feel uncomfortable about very light neck tension when one is assertively feeding the rounds from a magazine, especially in some antiquated designs - I've seen bullet setback in the flesh, and it simply destroys your groups, not to mention being an elusive problem to diagnose. Moral of the story, you need to take it on a case-by-case basis... really depends on your application.

True I am doing exactly that single loading for full bore shooting. Not necessarily slow but no mechanical operations. In the right conditions I can get rounds off every 5 seconds manually removing the empty cartridge, loading a new one and putting it on the target before the wind changes.

[in2anity]

True I am doing exactly that single loading for full bore shooting. Not necessarily slow but no mechanical operations. In the right conditions I can get rounds off every 5 seconds manually removing the empty cartridge, loading a new one and putting it on the target before the wind changes.

Nice, but have you ever tried the mad-minute? In any case, it sounds like you've got at least that part of your process nice and refined, and that’s the name of the game - over time refining all the parts that go into shooting a good group Speaking of windage, it's looking like a strong fishtailing headwind on Sat in Syd that'll certainly make things interesting. Windy days coming up with the warmer weather and all...

[Larry]

Yes just once a year we run a 303 day as they used to be done in the 30-50s using period targets. I have tried the mad minute at home it can be done. But it is a whole different ball game to say the least.

[TassieTiger]

The mad minute??
As per Pauline- Please explain?

[in2anity]

TT shoot as many rounds as possible in 1 minute. Usually a Service match, so scored on hits. Often incorporated into SMLE comps. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DhjUrqH88s

[bigrich]

my annealing process is simple and appears to work. for anyone who is a tradie or has a decent amont of common sense, try this method

i got a adaptor that fits in the drill chuck for my ryobie battery drill i bring home from work , that takes normal hex sockets . the depth of the socket is important so as you spin the drill on low speed the rifle case sits in the socket without wobbling .using a $33 bunnings gas torch i hold the case to the inner flame as seen on another posters annealing machine . i count one mississipi, two mississipi etc , until the case turns a dark blue and is on the verge of starting to glow . then i tip the case into a bucket of water and start again . once the length of time is worked out for the right "color" on the case i repeat the same count with every case after . 308 PPU cases needed a count of 11 mississipi's to get the right look this is hardly a high tech way , but as accuracy has been excellent after resizing and annealing it seems to work . i hope this helps

[in2anity]

Yeah nice BR, don't doubt that it's "good enough". You can also use a 2000w heat gun that produces temps up to 600 deg. The Ozito one will do it. Using a pair of pliers, hold the case by the base and shove the neck into the spout of the heat gun. Using a metronome app - for a .308 I hold it in there for 8 seconds, a .223 5 seconds and a 303 10 seconds - you should see the correct colour change.

[TassieTiger]

TT shoot as many rounds as possible in 1 minute. Usually a Service match, so scored on hits. Often incorporated into SMLE comps. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DhjUrqH88s

Now that looks like a lot of fun.

[bigrich]

Yeah nice BR, don't doubt that it's "good enough". You can also use a 2000w heat gun that produces temps up to 600 deg. The Ozito one will do it. Using a pair of pliers, hold the case by the base and shove the neck into the spout of the heat gun. Using a metronome app - for a .308 I hold it in there for 8 seconds, a .223 5 seconds and a 303 10 seconds - you should see the correct colour change.

thanks for the tip mate

[on_one_wheel]

I still work in a dark room so I can see the very faint glow of the brass and use propane, a cordless drill, deep socket and a bucket of water.
I've got. 243 brass that's been reloaded 6 x with nothing but a neck size, yet to have a single crack in the 200 cases I'm using.

I love annealing, it definitely gives longevity to the brass and consistency to neck tension.

If I was consistently shooting 100 rounds or more a week I'd definitely get an automated annealer, but for now I'm happy enough with my method.

[bigrich]

I still work in a dark room so I can see the very faint glow of the brass and use propane, a cordless drill, deep socket and a bucket of water.
I've got. 243 brass that's been reloaded 6 x with nothing but a neck size, yet to have a single crack in the 200 cases I'm using.

I love annealing, it definitely gives longevity to the brass and consistency to neck tension.

If I was consistently shooting 100 rounds or more a week I'd definitely get an automated annealer, but for now I'm happy enough with my method.

Same as me mate. It’s simple, and it works.

[Skinna]

Tassie good questions which I have never seen raised before and dont know the answers other than in a practical observed way. There are a couple of ways induction machines can work. I have made both. one is a copper coil with the case placed in the middle the other is a flux concentrator which is made from a ferite material and the copper coils are wound around this creating a current to flow. when a metal is placed in the gap.

Conductivity will have effect but I think it is more of an averaged thing of what is placed in the field. I think the same answer to this applies to your other question about uniform wall thickness. That at least in brass the thermal dissipation or conduction is so great that hot spots are not formed they propergate out into the brass so quickly. Heating the neck / shoulder junction of a 308 for 5 seconds can turn the neck cherry red too hot for annealing purposes but in less than 5 min the case has cooled enough to be handled. On the flip side the heat doesn't get too hot further down the case making the case too soft and dangerous to use.

The thinner walled brass certainly takes less time to heat I noticed that in the Winchester Vs Lapua settings that i had my unit set to and even then noticed some more inconsistency in the Winchester brass obtaining a different co lour in some case to others which translates to different temperatures reached. So given all that I think that you would be right if case necks were truly that inconsistent in neck wall thickness.

I use the thermal paint to set up the timer and a dark room as I dont want to see any colour change take place in the brass just on the thermal paint changing state.

G'day Larry.
With regard to these annealing machines you've made, is this something relatively easily built, &/or is it something you'd build & sell on.?
And if so, have you any idea of an estimate on what they'd be worth.?
Thanks

[Larry]

They are a pretty easy build for a bloke like you. I found the woodwork and mechanicals the hardest part. The electronis was just a case of purchasing parts in mostly module type size and putting stuff together.
Have a look here http://forum.accurateshooter.com/thread ... x.3908353/
Too much work to try and make it a commercial hobble at least for me.

[Blr243]

That machine with the rotating slotted wheels in the vid looked real cool. I could watch it all day. Maybe that’s important because if I walk away and ignore it My Entire hoUse might End up getting annealed as well

[TassieTiger]

Lol at BLR.

Now I’m thinking about it - you could utilise a lazy Susan type of set up or even a record turntable with slotted base and mini castors to hold cases and spin the cases - and opposite would be mounted Gas torch.
You’d have to find a small electric motor and arrange a belt / high gear to spin the castors, and a low gear to spin lazy Susan...put a timer on the low gear so after xx seconds it engages to move on to next case...

[Larry]

Lol at BLR.

Now I’m thinking about it - you could utilise a lazy Susan type of set up or even a record turntable with slotted base and mini castors to hold cases and spin the cases - and opposite would be mounted Gas torch.
You’d have to find a small electric motor and arrange a belt / high gear to spin the castors, and a low gear to spin lazy Susan...put a timer on the low gear so after xx seconds it engages to move on to next case...

You could use the same design but with a ferrite core on each side of the extended case neck from 2-6 seconds all done and on to the next case. Using induction that is and there would not really be the need to rotate the cases in the flame. Induction takes away a lot of potential problems that a naked flame has. Still hot enough to melt a case and burn the s**t out of you but less accidental fires IMO.

[Oldbloke]

I still work in a dark room so I can see the very faint glow of the brass and use propane, a cordless drill, deep socket and a bucket of water.
I've got. 243 brass that's been reloaded 6 x with nothing but a neck size, yet to have a single crack in the 200 cases I'm using.

I love annealing, it definitely gives longevity to the brass and consistency to neck tension.

If I was consistently shooting 100 rounds or more a week I'd definitely get an automated annealer, but for now I'm happy enough with my method.

Same here. But no need to dump in water. I just use a damp cloth. Stop when they start to turn blue. Any glow/Red is too late.