Keep good rceords

Reloading equipment, methods, load data, powder and projectile information.

Keep good rceords

Post by madang55 » 12 Sep 2020, 9:33 pm

So I started my reloading at 19yrs old, a 222Rem on a Martini action. 1st lesson learned was that if you don't put any powder in the case, a Martini can be troublesome. And, it immediately causes thoughts of what if?
Since then I have reloaded 12g, 22Hornet, 223R, 243W, 270W, 338WM, 308W, 9.3x62, and lastly, 6.5 Grendel. My box of spare bits for dies, spindles, nuts etc, would choke a horse and at 65 I reckon I've now got a reasonably good knowledge of reloading. PhD level maybe not, but enough to put up an educated argument.
My first reloading manual was a Speer publication. A great book to work with and a good source of information. I concentrated mostly on Winchester powders, easily purchased and they worked well enough for me. My 243 with the sporter weight barrel was grouping very nicely.
In 2016 I met a fellow to whom I eventually gifted quite a bit of 243W ammunition. Cases, loaded rounds, dies, projectiles. I didn't need them, I hadn't fired the rifle in a few years, I hadn't fired a shot of much at all in a few years. Since then I've gone quite mad and rejoined the sport in earnest.
Now, a couple of weeks ago, an interesting event. My mate gives me a call and says something along the lines of...

Him: "you know that ammo you gave me?"
Me: "yeah.....?"
Him: "you know you loaded them with xx grains too much powder. I fired a couple of shots and stopped because of some smoke coming back through the bolt! The writing on the ammo boxes says AR2209 powder and the figure is over the maximum recommended load"
Me: "pardon?" I grab my books and start looking. This cannot be!! My immediate thoughts are when I was reloading the 243, I was using the WIN powders. I have used 2209, so far back I still have the labels from the metal containers it used to come in.
Me: "If you have any of the rounds left can you pull a couple and weigh the powder, and make sure its 2209"
Him: "I've already pulled all the rounds, the powder is exactly the (looks) same as the 2209 I'm using"
Me: "what do the primers look like, flat?
Him: "no, they look ok"
A couple of days later, I got a message to say he weighed a couple of rounds, and yes they were what he said and so I'm left still trying to work out how that amount of 2209 fitted into the 243 case. It should have caused a compressed and probably high pressure load with an immediate flattening of the primers.

During my subsequent investigation I determined that:
1. If I was using the Speer manual, how could I have used 2209 powder. It's not listed in the book.
2. If I was using the ADI 9th Edition 2016, not possible, I reloaded these rounds several years before 2016.
3. If I wrote xx Grains of AR2209 on the ammo boxes, (I always write what's loaded on the box) where on earth did I come up with the figure that was used.
4. If the primers look OK, then I'm thinking, it's not high pressure causing the smoke, its low pressure not opening the case neck fully on firing. Then it cannot be an overcharge of 2209.
5. All my reload data is kept on the computer now, and on paper. I have no records going back that far. Only a couple of scribbles in the Speer manual.
6. At the time of owning and using the 243, all I owned was my CZ22 and a 338WM. If I was using 2209 for the 338, the amount on the incorrect ammo boxes was way, way too short.

The only thing I can think of was that what I wrote on the boxes was for the WIN760 powder I was using at the time, but I have none of that to visibly compare it to the current AR2209
Any ideas?
My wife knows me well.
The dog often reminds me of that
User avatar
madang55
Corporal
Corporal
 
Posts: 368
Victoria

Re: Keep good rceords

Post by in2anity » 12 Sep 2020, 10:21 pm

I doubt you’d have overpressure issues with 09. In a 308 (derivative), 09 is known for good case fill, not overpressure.

Could be primer blanking - how’s the primer look? Got any pics? Is it a Howa or Remi by chance?
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
User avatar
in2anity
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3048
New South Wales

Re: Keep good rceords

Post by in2anity » 12 Sep 2020, 10:23 pm

Win760 is ball anyway isn’t it? Whereas AR2209 is stick. You should be able to immediately identify if you pull one.
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
User avatar
in2anity
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3048
New South Wales

Re: Keep good rceords

Post by marksman » 12 Sep 2020, 11:29 pm

this one can be a sticky one

what l would say first up is that ammo loaded for your rifle should not be shot in another without working it up in that rifle first
l would also say that a tighter chamber, shorter throat or the so called cold welding of the bullet to the case from age and dissimilar metals that can be the cause higher pressure
ADI has over time revised their manuals and changed some powder weights eg.. that comes to mind the use of adi 2205 in the 17 ackley hornet
l have found the ADI manual is mild in there max loads to suit all ages of rifles
also what in2anity has said
“If you do not read the newspapers you are uninformed. If you do read the newspapers you are misinformed”. Mark Twain
User avatar
marksman
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3660
Victoria

Re: Keep good rceords

Post by madang55 » 13 Sep 2020, 12:42 pm

In conclusion,
a. Don't use reloaded ammunition in a firearm it wasn't reloaded for. I never have. In his defence, the cases were full length re-sized during the process so should have been ok. I neck size my own now, that could be a problem in another rifle.
b. agree about the differences in ball and stick powders. He says they look exactly the same.
c. It's a Howa and the primers look OK. It was the first question I asked.
As I said to my mate, I think its one of those questions about the universe. It's a lesson to be a lot more careful with checking what yr doing. A bit like those nurses double checking what's in the syringe they're just about to stick in yr soft bits.
My wife knows me well.
The dog often reminds me of that
User avatar
madang55
Corporal
Corporal
 
Posts: 368
Victoria

Re: Keep good rceords

Post by in2anity » 13 Sep 2020, 3:37 pm

the howas have that vented bolt. perhaps old mate is getting some gas coming back. suppose there be carbon residue down the sides of his brass if that were so :unknown:
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
User avatar
in2anity
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3048
New South Wales

Re: Keep good rceords

Post by marksman » 13 Sep 2020, 3:53 pm

its not the way the cases were sized that is the problem if they fit
its that the rounds were safely worked up in your rifle but because of other things that can cause higher pressure eg... shorter throat, tighter chamber ect...
the cold weld of a bullet from older ammo gives higher pressure as well that can take a good load out of the sweet spot node

what l said about ADI revising there manuals is true as well, they do change the amounts of max powder used in there manuals

but dealing with the smoke from the bolt l understand where in2anity is coming from with what he is saying
have a good look at the outside edge of the primers for a black ring confirming gas escaping from the primer pocket
the smoke has to come from somewhere :unknown:
“If you do not read the newspapers you are uninformed. If you do read the newspapers you are misinformed”. Mark Twain
User avatar
marksman
Colonel
Colonel
 
Posts: 3660
Victoria


Back to top
 
Return to Reloading ammunition