If a bottle of reloading powder ignited?

Reloading equipment, methods, load data, powder and projectile information.

If a bottle of reloading powder ignited?

Post by chookah » 20 Mar 2014, 9:33 am

Hi,

I know this is unlikely but just curious from a safety point of view... Say someone was reloading ammo and had their bottle of powder open and someone walked around the corner and drop a cigarette ash or whatever odd circumstance happened to ignite the bottle of powder... What happens?

I read that powder only "explodes" under pressure, so what happens if it's ignited without pressure? Something surely....

P.S. Ignore the really crappy example with the cigarette :lol:

You know what I mean... :)
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Re: If a bottle of reloading powder ignited?

Post by handofcod » 20 Mar 2014, 9:49 am

In unconfined conditions gun powder is a propellant and is not explosive. It will burn steadily until it is completely spent.

Think a burning flare rather than a firecracker.
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Re: If a bottle of reloading powder ignited?

Post by DaleH » 20 Mar 2014, 10:17 am

I think a flare as handofcod suggests is most likely.

Had discussions about this with the guys at the local black powder who historically used BP flasks to reload - new rules in the BP arena have all shooters reload using individually measured containers or each shot as there is potential for residues in the BP rifle to ignite the BP as it flows from the flask into the barrel and then ignite the BP in the flask - as this is contained, a little "boom" would result.
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Re: If a bottle of reloading powder ignited?

Post by yoshie » 20 Mar 2014, 11:39 am

Yeah it would just burn away, fairly fiercely. You're not supposed to store gun powder in container that can hold pressure, the WA rules stating gun powder be stored in a prescribed container ( safe ) goes against manufacturers advice and is dangerous.
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Re: If a bottle of reloading powder ignited?

Post by Aster » 20 Mar 2014, 12:24 pm

At some point you must have seen a "pour a trail of gun powder and light it" scene in a movie...

For possibly the first time in history something in a movie was accurate :lol:

It will more or less burn energetically and spark and spit fire as shown 'movie style' but won't "explode".

Having said that, I wouldn't want to be sitting at the desk when half a kg bottle of it goes up...
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Re: If a bottle of reloading powder ignited?

Post by Aussier » 20 Mar 2014, 12:25 pm

It would be a hell of a show if a bottle of powder went up in a small room :D
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Re: If a bottle of reloading powder ignited?

Post by disko » 20 Mar 2014, 12:26 pm

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Re: If a bottle of reloading powder ignited?

Post by DaleH » 20 Mar 2014, 1:49 pm

Hmm - Insurance claim for a new reloading press and dies...Oh and the house too I guess.
Any one know if general house and contents insurance would cover this type of incident?
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Re: If a bottle of reloading powder ignited?

Post by Antie » 20 Mar 2014, 1:54 pm

You can bet your life they'd be doing everything they could to get out of paying if you told them there was gun powder involved.
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Re: If a bottle of reloading powder ignited?

Post by Chronos » 20 Mar 2014, 3:10 pm

It would perhaps catch fire.

I realise many of you may not have seen powder burn so here goes

Here's 50grams (770 grains) of powder burning. This is smokeless rifle powder, do not try with black powder or you may loose some eye lashes

If course the real danger it it's probably not possible to put it out once it starts burning. Something like a flammable liquid fire is able to be smothered but a powder fire doesn't rely in external oxygen so something like a fire blanked is not going to touch it, although it may save your curtains and other items from catching fire


http://youtu.be/wBFnI_tIVTY


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Re: If a bottle of reloading powder ignited?

Post by DaleH » 20 Mar 2014, 4:58 pm

pyromaniac!

Apparently it works great on ants nests....
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Re: If a bottle of reloading powder ignited?

Post by Oldbloke » 20 Mar 2014, 7:11 pm

Pyrotechnic fires are virtually impossible to extinguish. The youtube video is a good example of what I would expect in an open container. However if this happened beside a closed container and it propigated to that container I would expect a far more energetic reaction from the closed container, perhaps an explosion. I know the containers are designed for explosive materials but the result if an ignition happens can be far worse than expected, even with what apears to be inocent small changes. And each propellent will react differantly.
Bulk containers should always be well away from any reloading activities and only have the minimum amount of propelldent on the reloading bench. Always wear safey glasses. Remove all igition sources. Remember FISH, friction, impact, spark, heat.
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Re: If a bottle of reloading powder ignited?

Post by Chronos » 20 Mar 2014, 7:43 pm

Oldbloke wrote:if this happened beside a closed container and it propigated to that container I would expect a far more energetic reaction from the closed container


Well, that's why I did it in an open container :lol:

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Re: If a bottle of reloading powder ignited?

Post by Tonit » 21 Mar 2014, 7:35 am

That's you on the vid Chronos?
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Re: If a bottle of reloading powder ignited?

Post by Spooner » 21 Mar 2014, 7:52 am

Now the 4kg bottle Chronos :D
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Re: If a bottle of reloading powder ignited?

Post by Chronos » 21 Mar 2014, 8:40 am

Tonit wrote:That's you on the vid Chronos?


Yes mate, I made the vid just to show what powder burns like to guys here who haven't seen it

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Re: If a bottle of reloading powder ignited?

Post by Granting » 21 Mar 2014, 10:37 am

It's weird to have a voice to a forum member now :lol:
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Re: If a bottle of reloading powder ignited?

Post by Chronos » 21 Mar 2014, 12:42 pm

Well there are real people here, not just nameless faceless voiceless keyboard warriors. Sure there are some if them here too. Lol

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Re: If a bottle of reloading powder ignited?

Post by Herdsman » 21 Mar 2014, 5:19 pm

And here I thought it was just lots of small photos yelling at each other :lol:
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Re: If a bottle of reloading powder ignited?

Post by Chronos » 21 Mar 2014, 5:38 pm

Herdsman wrote:And here I thought it was just lots of small photos yelling at each other :lol:



:lol: you've just described the internet

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Re: If a bottle of reloading powder ignited?

Post by 1290 » 21 Mar 2014, 8:51 pm

you shy Chronos? didnt show your face only your hairy arm....and a handsome arm it is.

Black powder is explosive, smokeless is not.
Powder containers are purposefully relatively weak so that an ignition causes the container to split and not increase pressure, only when the ignited propellant is contained does the pressure increase extremely quickly - such as in the cartridge as chambered in a firearm....

Also, propellant is not to be stored in a steel receptacle such as an old fridge or steel cabinet
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Re: If a bottle of reloading powder ignited?

Post by von_klitzing » 21 Mar 2014, 9:16 pm

Got any reloading friends? Pay a visit and conveniently drop a match into a bottle :P
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Re: If a bottle of reloading powder ignited?

Post by Chronos » 21 Mar 2014, 9:19 pm

1290 wrote:you shy Chronos? didnt show your face only your hairy arm....and a handsome arm it is.


Lol. Had the iPhone balancing on a pile of dirt and didn't feel like sticking my face in the dirt just to get my ugly mug on camera. :lol:

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Re: If a bottle of reloading powder ignited?

Post by Aster » 22 Mar 2014, 6:54 am

von_klitzing wrote:Got any reloading friends? Pay a visit and conveniently drop a match into a bottle :P
Only if you're game...


And want ex-friends :P
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Re: If a bottle of reloading powder ignited?

Post by sooey » 22 Mar 2014, 6:55 am

1290 wrote:Also, propellant is not to be stored in a steel receptacle such as an old fridge or steel cabinet


Erm, or the ammo compartment of a gun safe?
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Re: If a bottle of reloading powder ignited?

Post by 1290 » 22 Mar 2014, 8:40 am

sooey wrote:Erm, or the ammo compartment of a gun safe?


That's right, no powder in the ammo compartment, unless its lined with a timber of other non sparking material....thems the regs, at least in Vic.
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Re: If a bottle of reloading powder ignited?

Post by brand » 22 Mar 2014, 1:06 pm

1290 wrote:That's right, no powder in the ammo compartment, unless its lined with a timber of other non sparking material....thems the regs, at least in Vic.


Got a link to that legislation?

I'm always been told that's where to store it. If the sparking thing is a concern that's fair enough, but never heard it mentioned as a legal thing.

Link?
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Re: If a bottle of reloading powder ignited?

Post by Seconds » 22 Mar 2014, 1:12 pm

I'm curious to confirm that too.

Quick Google through Vic police website and WorkSafe website which also came up with some info on storing powders didn't come up with anything about not storing in your safe?
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Re: If a bottle of reloading powder ignited?

Post by 1290 » 22 Mar 2014, 4:25 pm

The Politz will probably overlook such a detail as it falls under the Dangerous Goods Regs and not the Firearms Act...although they can still enforce the regs (worksafe are the licensing authority for explosives and dangerous goods)

Dangerous Goods (Explosives) Regulations 2011:
http://www.legislation.vic.gov.au/domino/Web_Notes/LDMS/LTObject_Store/ltobjst8.nsf/DDE300B846EED9C7CA257616000A3571/BF31ADBD9B794DBFCA257C78001872F8/$FILE/11-37sra005%20authorised.pdf


69 Explosives not to be stored in safes or refrigerators
A person who stores any explosives, except explosives of Classification Code 1.4S, must not store the explosives in a document safe, money safe or refrigerator.

70 Storage of Hazard Division 1.1, 1.2, [b]1.3, 1.5 or 1.6 explosives[/b]
(1) A person who stores explosives of Hazard Division 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 1.5 or 1.6 must—
(a) store the explosives in— (i) a receptacle that complies with regulation 73; and
(ii) a building that complies with regulation 63(1)(b); and .....

73 Requirements for construction of receptacles
A receptacle used for the storage of explosives must be constructed and maintained as follows—
(a) the construction of the receptacle must be sturdy; and
(b) the receptacle must have a close fitting closure; and
(c) the inner construction of the receptacle must—
(i) be made from, or be lined with, plywood or close joined timber or another suitable non-sparking material; and
(ii) not include exposed iron or steel.
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Re: If a bottle of reloading powder ignited?

Post by brand » 23 Mar 2014, 11:51 am

Thanks 1290.
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