Bio-Deg wads/shotcups?

[Gadge]

Hes trying to make biodegradable shot cups....loose shot in a shell is pretty easy to make.

Mate, I think you need to read his posts a bit more carefully - the shot cups are only one part, of a fully biodegradable wad column...

bladeracer, PM inbound, about a hands-on wadmaking session...

A couple of useful google search terms to copy and paste;
cast boolits biodegradable shot cups
pigeonwatch biodegradable shot cups

[Oldbloke]

I would try:

Primer.
Powder
Over powder card wad.
Felt, cork wads to correct height.
Card wad (to help suport the cup above)
Cardboard cup
Shot
Star crimp

As mentioned AS50n or AS30 powder will work

What sort of pattern you get will be interesting.
Also to reduce pellet damage which opens up patterns I've heard of "buffering " materials being put in with the shot. e.g. talcum powder or flour. Perhaps saw dust?

[bigpete]

I would try:

Primer.
Powder
Over powder card wad.
Felt, cork wads to correct height.
Card wad (to help suport the cup above)
Cardboard cup
Shot
Star crimp

As mentioned AS50n or AS30 powder will work

What sort of pattern you get will be interesting.
Also to reduce pellet damage which opens up patterns I've heard of "buffering " materials being put in with the shot. e.g. talcum powder or flour. Perhaps saw dust?

Leather works fantastic as a wadding material

[bladeracer]

Mec makes a wad that's biodegradable midway sales them I have tryed to post a link but my tablet is not letting me

Not seeing anything on the MEC website about these.
https://www.mecoutdoors.com/wads

A direct link or at least a part number or code would be good.

[bladeracer]

Ha, ha. See my pm.
I got confused.

Edit: pic below. This is just paper but basic design seems to work. Just needs some refinement to get a reasonable cardboard cup.

Wad pressure is important. If its low the powder will not burn well. Solution is to add wads under the shot wad. In your case trial and error till u get a good crimp.

Edit. Your trying to duplicate a factory crimp. If it is not firm you need more wads under the shot.

The paper cup is pretty much what I was originally planning so I'll work more on that.
Yes, crimp pressure does seem very important to these things

[bladeracer]

G'day all,

What Eley in the UK do, is to 'turn back the clock', and revert to an old-time [as used from the blackpowder days, until the 1960s] multi-component punched wad column, for their 'bio friendly' loads.

This basically consists of a hard cardboard overpowder wad, sized to grip the case walls, then a felt/fibre/cork cushion wad, then the shot charge.
Then, if a roll crimp is used, a thin overshot wad - this is necessary for 12ga 2.5" Black Powder loadings, as required for older Brit made guns.

Commercial 'Circle Fly' wads are available from Forbes Wholesale in Vic, but just buy an 18mm wad punch, and you're set to make your own!
Wad Materials:
Overpowder: 2.5mm+/= hard cardboard

Cushion: wool felt, carpet underlay felt, or cork floor tiles, also that heavy waxed corrugated cardboard used for fruit/veg boxes. I 'edge lube' mine using 1+1 Lard/Beeswax hard setting lube, and the tool shown below. It's just two 2c pieces soft soldered to the tips of a large pair of lab forceps.

IMG_0542.JPG

Overshot: If roll crimping, wine [or port!] cask box cardboard. If you get star crimps that are 'leaky', a square of paper on top of the shot charge will stop the leakage.

The attached ASJ article on Black Powder Shotgun explains all this concisely...

I'm not completely against doing away with the shot cup, but from what I'm reading, it tends to aid a tighter pattern, and as I'm trying to reduce the payload I think the cup is a good thing to have. But I should certainly try some without just to see for myself what the pattern does. I also want to use a thicker-walled cup to reduce the diameter of the shot load to see if that tightens the pattern also.

[bladeracer]

I dashed out just now while the rain had mostly stopped.

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This one is 25gn of Trailboss, over-shot card, seven 2mm .750" cork wads, and a "cup" I banged together out of an OzPost parcel collection card that was on my desk. I put a roll of the card in the shell, poured the 330gn of #7-1/2 into it and measured the height - .600" roughly of shot column. So I used the full 140mm width of the OzPost card, cut that in half, marked it .600" and ruled a line. I trimmed it 8mm wider than that line, then I cut slits into the lower part about every 4mm with a gap of about 20mm every 20mm along the edge, and folded those down 90-degrees. I rolled it up under-size, folded the "petals under the bottom, put it in the hull, and teased it out to fill it. Then I put the second one inside the first, sort of like a sabot to ensure it blows apart. Poured the payload into that, and crimped it.

Chrono said 560fps (I think) but it felt like it had more punch than that. The "cup" blew apart right over the chrono (a meter from the muzzle) so it probably messed up the reading. It was very windy and I recovered most of the cup just to the left side of the chrono tripod, and the over-powder card about four-meters forward of that. No sign of the cork at all.

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The wind makes any analysis of the pattern moot I think, so I fired this one in the 20" full-choke T1000 barrel as I was really just after velocity for the Trailboss charge. The pattern is high-left, due primarily to the wind I'd say. Of the 275 pellets, I count 126 (46%) inside the 30" circle at 30m, and another 28 on the paper (56%). I suspect much of the remainder went off with the wind to the left. The inner 15" circle has only 10% though. I don't know how much the wind blows the pattern out but I'd be interested to see how this patterns without wind from the Condor 30", and get an accurate velocity. My shoulder says it was in the 1200fps region

The 25gn of Trailboss fills the hull to nearly three-times the level of 21gn of AP70N, greatly reducing the wad column, so I don't think it's viable with conventional plastic wads. I'm planning to swap to the AP50N and AS50N/APS450 for further testing at this point. The only ADI powder faster than these is the APS350/AS30N which I don't have yet.

[Oldbloke]

Hi Blade racer

I'm struggling to understand the design of the Shot "cup". Any chance of a before use and assembly pic?

BTW. Th a t pattern looks nice and uniform except for the hole in the centre. I was told in the past if you get that effect to reduce the powder. But no experience.

[bladeracer]

Hi Blade racer

I'm struggling to understand the design of the Shot "cup". Any chance of a before use and assembly pic?

BTW. That pattern looks nice and uniform except for the hole in the centre. I was told in the past if you get that effect to reduce the powder. But no experience.

Some pics of a paper one.

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The tabs all folded together make it quite difficult to tease the sides out to the sides of the hull, so removing half of them helps that. The thickness of the pile of tabs underneath is not significant with .005" paper, but I'm doing one from .018" cereal box card so I've removed a larger portion of the tabs - that will require some finessing to find the optimal number and size of tabs. The tabs didn't tear off the paper cup so cardboard will probably be fine with just a couple of tabs in total.

Put the cup in the hull, then pour in the shot to determine the height required, and cut the cup to that height. The wall thickness determines the height of the cup required to contain the shot. I'm curious whether increasing the wall thickness (to reduce the diameter of the shot column) will help to tighten the pattern, so I'm doing one with three cardboard cups nested. Three cups of .018" card will take about .120" off the diameter of the hull. The hull is about .725" ID and the petals of the wad are .025", so the normal column is about .675" diameter. Three card cups should bring the column down to about .605", and getting close to a 20ga. column (which is about .565"). This also reduces the thickness of cork wad required.

I'm definitely feeling the shot I fired last night so I think velocity must've been quite high, considering the 3/4oz. load. I'm sure I can reduce the Trailboss charge a fair bit to get the velocity down to 1000fps or so.

[bladeracer]

This one is 20gn of Trailboss behind 330gn of #7-1/2 in a .018"-thick card "cup" on seven 2mm cork wads, with an over-powder card and an over-shot card. Again with the T1000 20" full.
Chrono read 517fps this time. I moved back three-meters from it but the cup still blew out over the chrono. I really can't be sure if these measurements are accurate or not, I'll have to try at 5m, without putting pellets through the chronograph. It may be that Trailboss is hitting a pressure wall already in this configuration. The pellets are embedding in the 3mm MDF with the odd one going through. I'll quit with the Trailboss for now I think.

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The clay was just below the aiming mark, where the "7" and "12" are, was not knocked off its stick, and doesn't appear to have any marks on it, so I think it was simply missed completely this time.

The pattern is not awful, with 72% within the 30" circle at 30m, and 33% of them within a 15" circle, yet the clay made it through
My calculation says that's roughly one pellet per square-inch in the inner circle, but only one per 3.6-square-inches over the entire circle.

I was going to shoot this one with a double-thickness cup, but the shot column was very tall and I would've had to remove some of the cork wads, so I went with a single cup, and I didn't cut slits down it either. It's rolled but is not fixed in any way, just has about 20mm lap. Removing it from the hull it expands to about 25mm diameter and easily tears away from the shot column. I might try four separate "quadrants" for the cup next, to see if the pattern is being pushed to one side by the lap in the cup as it opens up in flight.

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[Oldbloke]

If you put 3 or 4 cut in the cup to make fingers the cup will slow down and fall away much quicker. That's what it's meant to do. I assume there is a card directly under the cup Is a good barrel fit !

Didn't know u could use trailboss in shotgun. Your compressing the powder. I thought that was a no, no!

[bladeracer]

As I'm trying to keep a dense pattern with a reduced 3/4oz payload I thought keeping the cup together longer would help that. The cup is still leaving the shot column within the first two meters of leaving the muzzle.

I think their concern is about really compressing it, enough to break a large proportion of the donuts. I'm not putting anywhere near as much pressure on these crimps as I do seating bullets.

The very low chamber pressure of shotguns though may work poorly with the equally low pressures of Trailboss, leaving very little to make velocity. But TB is the fastest powder I own so I wanted to try it.

If you put 3 or 4 cut in the cup to make fingers the cup will slow down and fall away much quicker. That's what it's meant to do. I assume there is a card directly under the cup Is a good barrel fit !

Didn't know u could use trailboss in shotgun. Your compressing the powder. I thought that was a no, no!

[TassieTiger]

If you had a shorter barrel - would a brake assist in reducing the recoil ?

[bladeracer]

If you had a shorter barrel - would a brake assist in reducing the recoil ?

Yep, a brake was the reason I bought the T1000. Brakes for double guns seem to be a problem compared to simply screwing something onto a single muzzle. But more compact designs have been appearing that may be narrow enough to pair up without fouling each other. As usual though they do tend to be unpleasant to be around

[Oldbloke]

I'm trying to keep a dense pattern with a reduced 3/4oz payload I thought keeping the cup together longer would help that. The cup is still leaving the shot column within the first two meters of leaving the muzzle

I think once the wad leaves the barrel jobs done.

I would think that's ok. Do you know how far a normal wad travels before dropping away?

[bladeracer]

I'm trying to keep a dense pattern with a reduced 3/4oz payload I thought keeping the cup together longer would help that. The cup is still leaving the shot column within the first two meters of leaving the muzzle

I think once the wad leaves the barrel jobs done.

I would think that's ok. Do you know how far a normal wad travels before dropping away?

The plastic shot cups are landing around the 25m mark, even reduced loads, I have found a few right at the target. At 25m The factory loads generally hit the target at 25m and bounce the wad back, or punch a hole in paper.

[Oldbloke]

Mmmm, 25mtr. I was thinking 15 or 20 was normal. Been a while since I used th 12g.

Can that tell us anything?
I guess the plastic wad is a bit heavier. Not much.

Got to be mainly velocity I think.

The cup u made looks to me it will work. I would try is with the AS50n and see. Say 20 gr

[bladeracer]

Mmmm, 25mtr. I was thinking 15 or 20 was normal. Been a while since I used th 12g.

Can that tell us anything?
I guess the plastic wad is a bit heavier. Not much.

Got to be mainly velocity I think.

The cup u made looks to me it will work. I would try is with the AS50n and see. Say 20 gr

I loaded a shell today of 21.5gn of AS50N behind 330gn of #9. I made a cardboard "cup" out of four half-cups. Two in first, then two more nested inside but at ninety-degrees to the first. Gives me two thicknesses of wall, but will hopefully separate cleanly. I calculated the height of the cork wad required and put nine discs in. But when I crimped it the petals just collapsed into the shot. So I emptied it out, pulled the petals out and put an over-shot card in on top. The crimp is still a little low so I'll have to go with ten cork discs and see if that works better next time. Too wet and windy to bother testing it today.

[wrenchman]

Mec100b10t4

[bladeracer]

Mec100b10t4

Thanks Wrenchman.

I'm really after something that can pass safely through the digestive systems of stock animals, rather than something that will eventually break-down, long after the animal has fulfilled its existence.

[bigpete]

https://www.claygame.co.uk/12ga-fibre-shot-cups-34mm-38mm-and-55mm-pd82

Those look good. They say no sales outside of UK but I'll email and ask.
Very bloody expensive though, $25/100, compared to about $15/250 here for plastic ones - more than four-times the price without postage.
But if I can get them I will.

Did you ever hear from them ?

[bigpete]

Hes trying to make biodegradable shot cups....loose shot in a shell is pretty easy to make.

Mate, I think you need to read his posts a bit more carefully - the shot cups are only one part, of a fully biodegradable wad column...

bladeracer, PM inbound, about a hands-on wadmaking session...

A couple of useful google search terms to copy and paste;
cast boolits biodegradable shot cups
pigeonwatch biodegradable shot cups

Even easier to make a fully biodegradable shot column,the cup is the hard bit

[bigpete]

Hes trying to make biodegradable shot cups....loose shot in a shell is pretty easy to make.

Mate, I think you need to read his posts a bit more carefully - the shot cups are only one part, of a fully biodegradable wad column...

bladeracer, PM inbound, about a hands-on wadmaking session...

A couple of useful google search terms to copy and paste;
cast boolits biodegradable shot cups
pigeonwatch biodegradable shot cups

Even easier to make a fully biodegradable shot column,the cup is the hard bit

[bladeracer]

https://www.claygame.co.uk/12ga-fibre-shot-cups-34mm-38mm-and-55mm-pd82

Those look good. They say no sales outside of UK but I'll email and ask.
Very bloody expensive though, $25/100, compared to about $15/250 here for plastic ones - more than four-times the price without postage.
But if I can get them I will.

Did you ever hear from them ?

I think the answer was that they won't ship out of the UK. I bought a bunch of organic cork sheets of varying thicknesses to make my own.

[Marlin44]

Eley have a loaded round with a bio degradeable wad, its steel shot also. Not cheap but either is a vet bill to extract plastic wads from a cows gut, especially the price of cattle currently

[LawrenceA]

You can make and use paper cups for shot. Muzzleloaders use thrm.
For wads i use basically compressed grass.
Referred to as vegie wads.

[bladeracer]

Eley have a loaded round with a bio degradeable wad, its steel shot also. Not cheap but either is a vet bill to extract plastic wads from a cows gut, especially the price of cattle currently

No good to me if they don't sell the wads separately.

[bladeracer]

You can make and use paper cups for shot. Muzzleloaders use thrm.
For wads i use basically compressed grass.
Referred to as vegie wads.

Yep, paper works fine for the shotcup. For the wad I've been using cork and corrugated cardboard.
Never heard of veggie wads but they sound good.

[LawrenceA]

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categori ... 1/WAD-12-C

Pm me and i can send a few 14gauge ones your way. But it will be next week.