Chasing the lands is stupid

by Am88 » 28 Oct 2020, 9:47 am

This stumbled into my feed somehow, very interesting. going to give it a go.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRXlCG9YZbQ

by marksman » 28 Oct 2020, 11:30 am

if you watch enough of Erics videos you will see a common factor "hokay"

what would impress the sh!t out of me is when Eric can do all this with a howa factory rifle "hokay"
using lee RGB dies "hokay" and all the gear a new guy would have to use "hokay"
l'm not sure how he would go without his sponsorship "hokay"
the common factor is contradiction "hokay"
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14302

l do agree it pricked up my interest and l have watched a few of his vids myself but its nothing new and full of contradictions

l'm certain his next move will be a book :lol:

he is a salesman so l will say buyer beware :drinks:

if you are going to try this method make sure you get your volume right first as adjusting the oal to tune is something to do to fine tune your load afterward

by in2anity » 28 Oct 2020, 12:27 pm

He keeps saying "why are you so stuck on measuring the lands" - must be an F-brigade quandary, cause it certainly isn't a topic of reiterative conversion at the fullbore or service ranges which I frequent. In any case, we DO care where the lands are, only the point of reference is OAL of the cartridge. He's just reframing the problem to suit his argument.This guy irritates me.

by Am88 » 28 Oct 2020, 12:36 pm

well I'm no benchrester that's for sure, I did find it interesting however. I would only like to try this in one of my rifles which is my .222mag I got built. and when I say try I mean using a resized case to achieve his "JAM" as he calls it, for the bullet instead of a slightly bent fired case to find jam as that rifle has a very short throat and hard to get a consistent method doing it the other way.

by Bugman » 28 Oct 2020, 12:49 pm

hokay!

by mchughcb » 28 Oct 2020, 1:07 pm

Most of my rifles are break action. You can put the bullet so far out it looks ridiculous and not jam it. They all shoot MoA. They all kill stuff and they don't get jammed in the gun. Worried about the lands once then I forgot about it and never missed it.

by in2anity » 28 Oct 2020, 1:15 pm

And what about the whole "not all bullets are made equal" aspect to the problem? I can tell you right now that even Sierra MKs have more variance in them than the values he is working with. Deep pockets for "tacticool" pills required for this level of analism.

by SCJ429 » 28 Oct 2020, 5:16 pm

I would only tell Eric that he was wrong if I could beat him consistently. I am a long way from doing that, he is very talented. I listen to what he says and see if I can use the information to improve.

by in2anity » 29 Oct 2020, 7:25 am

SCJ429 wrote:I would only tell Eric that he was wrong if I could beat him consistently. I am a long way from doing that, he is very talented. I listen to what he says and see if I can use the information to improve.

I don't think it's a matter of being "wrong" - it's more the process he is suggesting is at the extreme end of the analism spectrum. I guess that's F-class for you though :unknown:

by SCJ429 » 03 Nov 2020, 7:14 pm

If you are a competitive person and you want to improve, you look around and see what successful people are doing. If you did exactly what Eric does, and shot with the talent he has, you would win every service rifle comp you went it.

If you are happy with the results you are getting, then don't change a thing.

by in2anity » 03 Nov 2020, 9:06 pm

SCJ429 wrote:If you are a competitive person and you want to improve, you look around and see what successful people are doing. If you did exactly what Eric does, and shot with the talent he has, you would win every service rifle comp you went it.

If you are happy with the results you are getting, then don't change a thing.

At (high) club level, Service rifle requires no where near that sort of handloading annalism that Eric is suggesting. Skill is pulling the trigger at the right moment of the breath, between heartbeats, multiplied by the three positions, which are all completely different. It’s perfecting the use of the crude iron sights. It’s perfecting the use of the service sling (w.r.t everything above). If your gun can consistently hold sub 2moa, your gun is probably worthy of the highest grade, and is capable of consistent Vs in the prone at longest distances. That’s a rare thing for an as-issued service rifle. Very different skill set to F-class (no disrespect). Believe me, I am a highly competitive person, but chasing 1/4 moa is jus not a variable of concern, there are so many other shooter error aspects there to be screwed up. And if the club allows modified service, a 1moa shooter is the pinnacle. Horses for courses.

by SCJ429 » 04 Nov 2020, 6:59 am

Matt Emmons uses open sights but he would not be satisfied with a 1MOA rifle. If you could have his positional shooting ability and load like Cortina, you would be unstoppable.

As I said, if you feel like better loading technique would not improve your shooting then don't bother.

For me, wind reading is probably the biggest factor regarding my results. That doesn't stop me trying to produce the most accurate ammo that I can. You would be mad not to try something that would result in an improvement. If you get better results shooting Berger bullets over Sierra MK, why not try it.

If I was required to shoot with open sights, I would bolt a 50x scope on it for load development and then replace it with open sights for competition.

by in2anity » 04 Nov 2020, 7:25 am

Yes maybe Emmons might justify it, but for the rest of us, we can still win comps without going to such degrees.

With Service, consistency is probably more important than brute precision. Because barrels are often to spec (and thin), your precision goes out of the window after the first leg anyway (due to barrel heat). So while certainly it's worth chasing accurate handloads, the fact of the matter is you'll never get much better than 1moa (out of a service rifle). Magazine length is a big problem - you're often jumping bullets a loong way for reliability. That fact alone indicates that single-load precision is unobtainable.

Granted, a 1moa shooter gives you more "wiggle" room than a 2moa shooter, for the prone details. That's helpful. And I'm having a No4 223 conversion built that will yield 1moa - a better 300m prone gun. But in contrast, for the 100m standing events, all you have to do is put them into 6" to score a V. This is a lot harder than it seems, because you can't put the gun down (to give your arms a rest), and often there are time and exposure restrictions. In fact some shooters shoot lead at 100m because that's enough accuracy to still shoot a perfect score.

by Larry » 04 Nov 2020, 6:20 pm

The issue with 1MOA rifles when target shooting is that knowing exactly where the centre of your SD is. As if you adjust on a shot to centre the group you are probably not really centering the group just changing the whole random dispersed group. which may then give you a single shot that is 2 MOA from the super. This is why it is important to have a good shooter that you can have confidence in. Only then can you really make adjustments to account for environmental changes based on your previous shot.