Full Length or Neck Sizing only for these cases?

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Full Length or Neck Sizing only for these cases?

Post by notfarg » 15 Nov 2020, 11:03 pm

Full Length or Neck only?
I have been in the habit of neck sizing now for a couple of years, but thought I would ask the question to see if the thoughts on the subject had changed dramatically lately.
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Re: Full Length or Neck Sizing only for these cases?

Post by SCJ429 » 19 Nov 2020, 7:15 am

If you like to neck size and the cases chamber OK, then keep going. If they get tight to chamber, run them through a FLS die or a small base body die. Then you can go back to neck sizing.
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Re: Full Length or Neck Sizing only for these cases?

Post by madang55 » 19 Nov 2020, 7:42 am

Cheers, thanks for that
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Re: Full Length or Neck Sizing only for these cases?

Post by SCJ429 » 19 Nov 2020, 6:46 pm

I neck sized some 6BR brass 21 times before I used the small based body die. I also use a Lee collet die on my 223 brass and never full length resize. I only move the brass a couple of thou to hold the pill which helps prevent work hardening but if you want good results you will still have to anneal your brass regularly.
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Re: Full Length or Neck Sizing only for these cases?

Post by JimTom » 19 Nov 2020, 6:49 pm

Mate neck size for as long as you can, FLS as required. After a while you will work out how many times you can neck size before a FLS is required. For example my 308 needs a FLS every 5th reload.
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Re: Full Length or Neck Sizing only for these cases?

Post by LawrenceA » 19 Nov 2020, 7:49 pm

JimTom wrote:Mate neck size for as long as you can, FLS as required. After a while you will work out how many times you can neck size before a FLS is required. For example my 308 needs a FLS every 5th reload.

What he said!
With bells on.

Of course it matters a little on what guns are being used, pressures, reliability and so on.
Basically a bolt action has a strong ability to load and extract tight cases.
Other actions not so much.
FLS will reduce case life, speed up case stretch but basically ensures that the round will chamber.
Neck size tends to extend case life, tend to support accuracy but may make it harder to chamber a round (I have this problem with a Mannlicher Steyr 7mm Mag).
For lever actions (including Martini's), pumps and semi's it is wise to FLS each time to minimize chambering problems.

Hope this doesn't muddy the water too much.
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Re: Full Length or Neck Sizing only for these cases?

Post by madang55 » 20 Nov 2020, 8:57 am

No mud at all. I have a little annealing process of my own, so all good there. I'm getting Mr Swan to rebarrel a Rem700 to 204 Ruger. Going to buy som factory to run it in, so I thought I'd ask the question before I started reloading. Brass is a little difficult to come by, so factory first, anneal and reload.
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Re: Full Length or Neck Sizing only for these cases?

Post by Wyliecoyote » 27 Nov 2020, 6:43 pm

Better to show this video than to try and dispell the oldest wivestale in reloading. Straight from the horses mouths of many who cross shoot Fclass, 1000, 600 and short range BR.

Lou Murdica, the guy in the maroon T shirt, if anyone knows from the accuracy perspective, he does. He has done hundreds of tests in many areas of precision shooting.

Many make mention of "2 thou". By that they mean how far the shoulder is pushed back. Some do less, some do more. I found it dependent on cartridge. 6BR size i do 1 thou, 284 2 thou, and something like a 300 Ackley, close to 3 thou.
As stated, the first thing to die in cases is the pocket. Seperation is a fault of dies, brass, chamber and user. Hence the "2 thou" caveat. Minimal full length resizing to prevent excessive repetitive case stretching illiminates separation. Prolonged neck sizing wears the bolt lugs and or causes galling there. Something i saw too often during rebarreling of competition guns over the years. Take it as you like, but from a competition shooters and gunsmiths perspective, neck sizing only is very bad advice.

https://youtu.be/vaqg4sJvg24
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Re: Full Length or Neck Sizing only for these cases?

Post by Blr243 » 27 Nov 2020, 7:30 pm

Wyllie , I’m glad u posted that info. And the vid too. I only watched 40 per cent of the vid When I see lots of experienced people In that vid say FLS rather than neck sizeing. That can be interpreted by a beginner as setting up the die as per instructions to get the case back to original spec. And I’m sure hardly no one does that .....if those blokes were asked again BUMPING THE SHOULDER BACK A FRACTION IN A FLS DIE VS NECK SIZEING I m sure they would state the former .....the statement FULL LENGTH SIZING is just a bad bunch of words not describing things well .....does we all agree ?
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Re: Full Length or Neck Sizing only for these cases?

Post by TassieTiger » 27 Nov 2020, 8:53 pm

Not sure this debate will ever go away...
I Used to FLS until some ppl (on here) better explained to me the intricacies of matching brass to the chamber (more consistent firings), over working the brass (I don’t anneal), etc
I started my reloading journey on 223 - FLS found necks starting to fracture after 4 shots on some cases. I’m now at 7-8 firings just doing necks and cases don’t look any different...
But one has to be careful re pro advice, especially when those pros are affiliated with certain brass manufacturers...
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Re: Full Length or Neck Sizing only for these cases?

Post by Wyliecoyote » 28 Nov 2020, 9:16 pm

Maybe this vid is better as an explanation of how to set up the dies correctly and not the old rough method of shell holder bottoming out on the die base which will in no doubt lead to case head seperation if the shoulder is moved back excessively after a number of firings.
FLS in broad context relies on dies and chambers. Virgin brass is fired to fit so from there the set up is really simple and straight forward. Ideally S type dies should be used where the neck sizing can be controlled with more precision.

https://youtu.be/htvk1UYOXm8
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Re: Full Length or Neck Sizing only for these cases?

Post by TassieTiger » 28 Nov 2020, 9:24 pm

Think you’ll also find that mr cortina promises match grade results from opening a box of lapua brass...nothing more and that’s just straight out bulldust, as lap brass is built to Sami spec so could be insanely loose in some rifles and weighing / measuring a selection of new 260 lap cases sees some pretty big discrepancies and j body and in weight.
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Re: Full Length or Neck Sizing only for these cases?

Post by marksman » 29 Nov 2020, 8:10 am

Wyliecoyote wrote:Maybe this vid is better as an explanation of how to set up the dies correctly and not the old rough method of shell holder bottoming out on the die base which will in no doubt lead to case head seperation if the shoulder is moved back excessively after a number of firings.
FLS in broad context relies on dies and chambers. Virgin brass is fired to fit so from there the set up is really simple and straight forward. Ideally S type dies should be used where the neck sizing can be controlled with more precision.

https://youtu.be/htvk1UYOXm8


there's a couple of things l would like to add to what you have put up and l do not mean it as a criticism

it can take up to 4 firings before your virgin brass cases fit your chamber perfectly, brass can be different so it can differ

S type dies will only be more precise to use if you neck turn, if you dont you are only making the outside of the neck more precise, the inside could be out of round because of differing neck thicknesses
Image

in your previous post you mention "Prolonged neck sizing wears the bolt lugs and or causes galling there"
you will find this is with actions that are not looked after with no lubricant on the lugs after cleaning and using cases that need to be FLSed and are hard to chamber pushing the lubricant away from the lugs in a very dirty not looked after action, its not because you neck size
l have really only seen this in stainless actions

when setting up your dies for a good case fit when FLSing you would use your chamber to show the setting is right

as TT has alluded, Eric has some interesting info but it can be hypocritical

what l think anyway :drinks:
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Re: Full Length or Neck Sizing only for these cases?

Post by Wyliecoyote » 30 Nov 2020, 10:01 pm

Hi Marksman. The point of S type dies is to use bushings to move the necks a minimal amount while being used to bring in the shoulder and body taper. Necks with the correct bushing are moved far less than with a non bushing neck die which is generally made to move a very wide range of factory brass. Eccentric necks, or as you said, unturned, are just as eccentric in either a plain neck die and an S type BUT are more likely to be pulled off center when the expander is dragged through. So in effect a basic neck die moves the brass twice as opposed to the S type moving it once and maybe a couple of thou to be tight enough to grip the next bullet.

Of interest with fire forming. The body and neck of a cartridge is always a perfect fit in a chamber every time it's fired whilst under 50k psi pressure. The exception is the shoulder where it may need to move somewhat to fill out an improved chamber, or in the case of the 2 thou bump, move forward to contact the chamber shoulder and seal the gas from blowing past and collapsing the body. So to say that it takes four firings to be fully fireformed is really saying it takes four firings to lose elasticity as the brass ages. Brass that resilient and unyielding is usually only seen with the likes of Lapua and RWS. This is a good thing.
RWS brass which i used for years in long range benchrest never fully reached chamber fit in the body but lengthened to be tight at the shoulder after every firing thus requiring the FLS bump to be ready for the next firing. This is common with PPC, 6BR, 30BR and many other cartridges used in competition, but the process is exactly the same as the bloke using a 223 shooting bunnies.

With action wear, prolonged neck sizing turns the lug into a cam and can be seen with a bit of prussian blue on an action made of any material. It is more common than one thinks, easily corrected but will reduces extraction cam length. Of course poor lubrication contributes but it takes just the one tight case at the wrong time, lubed or not, and you can feel the galling in your teeth. Nitrided actions like a couple i have done need no lube if really needed but is not advised. But with proper FLS these actions in reality will never wear out.


Non blueprinted Rem 700s are very prone due to their poor tolerance from the factory. The bolts load up only on the lower lug because of the very nature of the design and sear lift, with the top lug often just floating doing precisely nothing. The action fires and the cartridge case head yeilds, leaving it out of square. This is common with a lot of other actions as well and was cured, not seen these days, by spinning a brass case head coated with lapping compound to "square" up the bolt face. Farcical as you really lapped in an out of square surface, hence why it's rarely mentioned. But it did work.
You neck size only but cannot index the cartridge the way it came out so at some point it feeds in with the long side at 6 o'clock. You close the bolt and it's tight. The process repeats and may or may not be be tighter with the cartridge indexing being totally random. At some point you've had enough and FLS, but by then the damage has begun.
At some point over the years the lower lug wears in, or more generally i see bruise in in some really misaligned actions, and both lugs contact evenly. But the out of square bolt face condition still exists and the routine continues until a cam is worn into the reciever lugs. Roo shooting rigs are somtimes so bad that the bolt and reciever lugs are recovered but the bolt handle has to be moved forward to recover the extraction camming. Tikka 55s were just chopped and thrown in the bin or drilled and a ball bearing set in place, something that should have been done at the factory i feel. Sako 85s, the absolute worst action god created to be used in dry dusty conditions over prolonged periods like roo harvesting, are irretrievable. Howas are better.
The point is i have seen it over many years. Cases are cheap, Sako 85s are not.

Think about it in another way. It takes a lot of work to prep a set of maybe 12 or 15 matched cases for a short range benchrest rifle that will usually stay with that barrel till it dies. Then in many instances move onto the next barrel. So it is in their interest to keep them alive for as long as possible. They all FLS between firings with either an S die, body die combined with a neck bushing, taper die with a seperate shoulder die as i made and used for years. These guys shoot in one match on those 15 cases more rounds than the average guy does in months, or a year. Their actions have multiple barrels for the different classes, never show lug damage because i get to see some of these actions between seasons. The group aggregates worldwide are comming down virtually every match and records are set regularly.Who is doing it the right way?
Done correctly, a factory rifle will net better aggregated accuracy with the same process. The case life will never be as good simply because of the chamber tolerances and the resultant brass movement. Action wear is minimized and peak accuracy is not dependant on the amount the action loads up on closing on irregular brass. Four firm and one tight or loose, is as they said in the early days of benchrest, Four Republicans and one Democrat in a group.
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Re: Full Length or Neck Sizing only for these cases?

Post by marksman » 01 Dec 2020, 9:02 pm

thanks for taking the time to post up your experiences Wylie :thumbsup:

l own and use S type dies, the problem with S type dies is that they are set to a certain standard that is not your rifle chamber,
l get the point of why you would use the S type dies the reason l own them, although l believe you are better to use a neck bushing die and a bump die separately because the cases are more concentric done this way
Eric Cortina has his S type dies made with his chamber reamer as does Speedy Gonzales who the S type dies are named after S = speedy, they are not off the shelf dies bought at the gun store, they are a custom die
the everyday reloader who thinks he is going to get better results by using them without neck turning is kidding himself
l agree the unturned cases, are just as eccentric in either a plain neck die and an S type, but understand l am not talking about crooked necks here l am talking about the neck and case centerline not being in line, nonconcentric
the answer if you are not neck turning is to use a lee collet die so the inside of the neck axis centerline stays the same as the case axis centerline because the irregularities of the neck are on the outside of the case neck not the inside

in my experience the brass in all brands of cases l have used when fired move forward or flows,
the reason for trimming or having to use a small base die when the case head expands to much and needs to be squeezed back to fit the chamber if your FLS die will not do it
l have found all brands of cases to take up to 4-5 firings before the case was tight in the chamber and would imagine it being impossible to adjust the die properly with a 2 thou bump from a proper fitting case without tight cases to start
l can setup my dies with the headspace gauges used when the rifles were chambered but l doubt the casual reloader has his own reamers or gauges
l have in the past checked cases for a compared length to my headspace gauges and seen big differences till they are fired 4-5 times
setup of FLS dies should be done by the rifle chamber after removing the firing pin so the bolt handle can drop 3/4 before any pressure is felt, that is around 2 thou bump from a tight chamber

although l have heard shooters complain about galling the rifle lugs it is guys who shoot comp using stainless actions and not lubricating when they should be, l own several rifles that l have never done anything but neck size that do not have a galling problem after shooting a few barrels out
although my actions are worked when l get a new tube fitted, as well as the lug abutments and bolt faces but l have never heard of spinning a case with lapping compound to square up the bolt face, not to say in the right hands it couldn't be done but it sounds a bit agricultural and as l square up the case heads on my cases with the wilson trimmer l do see how out of whack brand new cases are and would not be doing it myself

anyway thanks for taking the time to post up your way of doing it :drinks:
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Re: Full Length or Neck Sizing only for these cases?

Post by TassieTiger » 01 Dec 2020, 9:08 pm

Forgive ignorance - what is galling of lugs ?
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Re: Full Length or Neck Sizing only for these cases?

Post by marksman » 02 Dec 2020, 6:45 am

this is a pretty bad one to look at TT, basically the chewing on the surfaces, good idea to keep the lugs lubricated
what Wylie is saying is that the pressure exerted against the lugs as the bolt closes when only neck sizing can cause galling of the lugs,
if you gall the lugs you can feel it and know you have done it, after cleaning its a good idea to lube the lugs especially with a stainless action

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Re: Full Length or Neck Sizing only for these cases?

Post by straightshooter » 02 Dec 2020, 8:29 am

marksman
I agree that a Lee collet die is the best accuracy investment for somebody disinclined or unable to do precise case uniforming preparation.
I concur with many of your comments but not necessarily with your diagnosis of some causes.
Assuming you have a strong modern action, if your cases require FLS after 4 or 5 firings then I would be looking at what is going on with primary extraction or at what point in the bolt opening cycle true extraction commences. If it is at the upper stage of bolt lift, much mechanical advantage has been lost and it will seem that the cases are hard to extract.
Many people conflate galling with lug and abutment setback.
All actions using an override trigger suffer from this problem to a lesser or greater extent. The most common example is a Rem700 where, when cocked, the trigger pushes the bolt up as far as the receiver will allow thereby separating the upper lug from it's abutment while the lower lug remains in more intimate contact. On firing the upper lug and abutment suffer a greater degree of impact wear.
Understanding this cause and effect informs on the futility of 'so called' lug lapping and it's potential effect on the critical dimensions between lugs, abutments and extraction cam.
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Re: Full Length or Neck Sizing only for these cases?

Post by in2anity » 02 Dec 2020, 7:29 pm

There’s some info here to chew on. Thanks SS and MM.
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: Full Length or Neck Sizing only for these cases?

Post by marksman » 05 Dec 2020, 10:44 am

"Assuming you have a strong modern action, if your cases require FLS after 4 or 5 firings then I would be looking at what is going on with primary extraction or at what point in the bolt opening cycle true extraction commences. If it is at the upper stage of bolt lift, much mechanical advantage has been lost and it will seem that the cases are hard to extract."

l have recently had to deal with this in my 22 dasher, all of a sudden getting a click at the top of bolt lift feeling like a hard bolt lift,
the cause l found is when there is expansion in the web area of the case head, the fix was to use a 308 small base die to squeeze back the base of the case
l am not running this round at high pressure IMHO but it does have a tight fitted chamber very close to the cases dimensions, that may have something to do with it
hard lift or click expansion at the case head

with regard to shoulder bump you would have a hard bolt close
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Re: Full Length or Neck Sizing only for these cases?

Post by JohnV » 08 Feb 2021, 1:14 pm

If you shoot enough eventually you will need to either FLS or body size . Some case designs go longer before needing that .
Galled bolt lugs can be caused by a few things , lack of proper lubrication after cleaning , lack of proper cleaning , rubbish buildup in the lug recess . Jamming tight cases into the chamber on a regular basis can start galling especially on dry lugs .
Failure to clean out the lug recess each time after cleaning , pierced primers and no cleaning after on dry lugs can start it off .
Poor steel quality (rubbish in the steel ) or incorrect heat treatment . Rough machining to start with can kick it off . Swarf from machining stuck in the bolt lug recess and it gets caught in the bolt lugs . Cleaning from the muzzle instead of from the chamber , which pushes garbage into the bolt lug recess . Each time you clean your bolt action gun you should swab out the bolt lug recess with a dental pad and put lube on the bolt lugs and the cocking cam at the rear and a drop or two of light machine oil on the firing pin spring in addition to other cleaning operations.
It is also possible to get a tight case into a chamber and fire it ok but it won't extract . This is also another reason not to take neck sizing only to far . As soon as you feel a few cases offering chambering resistance it's time to resize the whole batch .
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Re: Full Length or Neck Sizing only for these cases?

Post by JohnV » 08 Feb 2021, 1:42 pm

marksman wrote:
Wyliecoyote wrote:Maybe this vid is better as an explanation of how to set up the dies correctly and not the old rough method of shell holder bottoming out on the die base which will in no doubt lead to case head seperation if the shoulder is moved back excessively after a number of firings.
FLS in broad context relies on dies and chambers. Virgin brass is fired to fit so from there the set up is really simple and straight forward. Ideally S type dies should be used where the neck sizing can be controlled with more precision.

https://youtu.be/htvk1UYOXm8


there's a couple of things l would like to add to what you have put up and l do not mean it as a criticism

it can take up to 4 firings before your virgin brass cases fit your chamber perfectly, brass can be different so it can differ

S type dies will only be more precise to use if you neck turn, if you dont you are only making the outside of the neck more precise, the inside could be out of round because of differing neck thicknesses
Image



in your previous post you mention "Prolonged neck sizing wears the bolt lugs and or causes galling there"
you will find this is with actions that are not looked after with no lubricant on the lugs after cleaning and using cases that need to be FLSed and are hard to chamber pushing the lubricant away from the lugs in a very dirty not looked after action, its not because you neck size
l have really only seen this in stainless actions

when setting up your dies for a good case fit when FLSing you would use your chamber to show the setting is right

as TT has alluded, Eric has some interesting info but it can be hypocritical

what l think anyway :drinks:

The part about case necks sizing better in bushings , if they are turned is correct . However in a factory chamber you don't need or want to turn the necks down to far . Just a skim that cleans up about 75% of the neck circumference is enough .
In a tight neck chamber with a specified diameter it's different and you need to turn down to the correct fit .
If you don't want to mess around with neck turning buy a Lee collet neck die , it is more forgiving on uneven neck thickness .
However learn how to use the collet die properly as the Lee instructions are crap .
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