Reloading .297/.230 - Unique powder.

[IlovemyLE]

I've picked up a Martini Cadet and to reload it in smokeless I'll be using Unique, as it seems to be the only available powder at the moment. The trouble is, I've only found it in an 8lb container. I'll only use about 3 grains a shot. Is anyone interested in going shares?

[No1_49er]

I hope that the info' you have, regarding a reload with Unique, is reliable.
Data that I have, for the 297/239 Long suggests 1.5gn for the 37 gn "factory type" bullet resulting in 1180fps.
IIRC, I got this scan from an old copy of Black Powder Cartridge News.

[IlovemyLE]

It seems to be. The info was from a site called British Militaria.

[IlovemyLE]

I belted out my first response too quickly. Thank you for your thoughts and the info. I've copied it down and will shop around for some of the other propellants. if nothing else it would save buying a quantity I wouldn't use in my lifetime. Unless someone does want to go shares. When I've worked up some safe loads I'll chrono and post them.

[No1Mk3]

G'day IlovemyLE,
That info from British Militaria was taken from a mis-reading of info printed in Barnes CoTW which gave example loadings for 297/230 Short, Long & Extra Long, I wouldn't rely on it. A common load among those of us who shoot 297/230 Long in the Francotte Cadet and use Morris Tubes, as well as revolvers, is 2.2g of AR2205 with the 37g bullet. In general I have found the faster powders like AP70 (Unique) and AS30 (Red Dot) to be inconsistent with velocity and accuracy, and best results came from medium burn powders. I would use the list No1_49er posted as MAX loads and start lower, I see it lists 2205 (H110) as 3.3g for the 37g pill, Cheers.

[IlovemyLE]

No1MK3, thanks for that. I was going to run with that info, and use AR2205 and work my way up. I think I'll give the Unique a miss. Do you use small pistol primers in this round ? I was using small rifle in my Ruger No 3 and she was all over the shop, but dropping back to SP and the same charge in 2205 I consistently get just over, or bang on the money, half inch groups at 150 metre, which I'm quite happy with.

[bladeracer]

I looked at one of these a little while ago in .297/250 and it occurred to me that machining some chamber adaptors to shoot .25ACP might make shooting it a whole lot simpler, and you could still shoot .297/250 occasionally. But I can't think of anything as handy for the .297/230.

Do you already have a bullet mould?

I have a very old ".22 WCF" mould made by Winchester.
I was told it should throw a .228" 45gn bullet but have never tried it.

I could throw a few bullets and measure them. If you like I can send you some to try as well. Have you slugged the bore already?

[IlovemyLE]

I've slugged the bore repeatedly and keep getting the same results - 224 on the grooves and .219-220 on the lands. The bore does look beautiful, but this seems rather nice. The rifle was handed in from a grand dad's estate and I picked it up for a song. CBE is shut down for a while for personal reasons and is not taking orders. I made some brass from .22 Hornet cases and stripped projectiles from .22 LR, but the bullet seating die from my CH4D set did some funny things to them. I thank you for your offer but I think I'm going to have to sort out a bullet die for this little poppet as it has a funny heel on the bullet, and there doesn't seem to be much leeway in the COL either. But thanks for the offer.

[bladeracer]

I've slugged the bore repeatedly and keep getting the same results - 224 on the grooves and .219-220 on the lands. The bore does look beautiful, but this seems rather nice. The rifle was handed in from a grand dad's estate and I picked it up for a song. CBE is shut down for a while for personal reasons and is not taking orders. I made some brass from .22 Hornet cases and stripped projectiles from .22 LR, but the bullet seating die from my CH4D set did some funny things to them. I thank you for your offer but I think I'm going to have to sort out a bullet die for this little poppet as it has a funny heel on the bullet, and there doesn't seem to be much leeway in the COL either. But thanks for the offer.

Wow, that sounds like a .22LR bore.
It would probably work great with .223" .22LR bullets. You shouldn't need to use a seating die to seat them because they're heeled, just prop the bullet in the case mouth and run it through a crimp die.

I've decided I'm going to throw some pure lead bullets from this mould and try them myself. If you decide you'd like to try them I'm happy to send you some.

[IlovemyLE]

I'm trying LR bullets, but I don't see how I can crimp to a heeled bullet with what I have here. I tried the seating die just to get the pill in further, that's where I ran into the deformation of the pills.

[bladeracer]

I'm trying LR bullets, but I don't see how I can crimp to a heeled bullet with what I have here. I tried the seating die just to get the pill in further, that's where I ran into the deformation of the pills.

What is the ID of the case mouth? It should be wanting to take a .225" bullet, the .22LR should fall straight through.
I have a .225" mould throwing 55gn bullets if you wanted to try some of those?

[IlovemyLE]

The case mouth measures up at 0.200", which allows the heel on the LR pill to engage, but the heel needs to be markedly to achieve a usable COL. I have a drawing of the bullets for this round somewhere on my old computer. I'm trying to find it whilst entertaining grandchildren.

[bladeracer]

The case mouth measures up at 0.200", which allows the heel on the LR pill to engage, but the heel needs to be markedly to achieve a usable COL. I have a drawing of the bullets for this round somewhere on my old computer. I'm trying to find it whilst entertaining grandchildren.

I have the Handloader's Manual of Cartridge Conversions. It shows the OD of the neck to be .240", so I don't think it's supposed to use a healed bullet, and it just says "Use .224" 40gn bullets". It does say that if making the short version from Hornet brass that you might need to ream the neck due to wall thickness, the long version isn't a problem - which is yours?

[IlovemyLE]

It's a long. I've an old drawing of the cartridge and the bullet and the bullet is definitely heeled, but I can't find the drawing - it's lurking there in cyberspace. When I find it I'll flick it across to you. CBE catalogue for that round also shows a definite heel.

[bladeracer]

It's a long. I've an old drawing of the cartridge and the bullet and the bullet is definitely heeled, but I can't find the drawing - it's lurking there in cyberspace. When I find it I'll flick it across to you. CBE catalogue for that round also shows a definite heel.

CBE certainly show a heeled bullet, .225" with a .216" heel.
How much shooting do you plan to do? It wouldn't be a huge effort to turn the tail of cast .225" 55gn bullets down to .216", and take a couple mm off to lighten them, provided you're not doing thousands of them. What is your case length and what is the CoaL you want?

Since your brass is .220" ID I'd just turn them down to that to get a snug fit without having to crimp it.

What area of Victoria are you in?

[No1Mk3]

G'day IlovemyLE,
The original Morris bullet was not heeled as you can see from this 1904 drawing. The use of heeled bullets today comes from the making of brass from 22 Hornet cases, by the time you shorten the case and form it the neck is quite thick and it becomes problematic to use normal bullets without reaming the cases so the mould from CBE casts a heeled bullet. I have also had some success pulling bullets from old 22 RF both lead and jacketed HP, Cheers

[IlovemyLE]

My case length is 0.80", the COL I need is 1.1". Much longer than that the LR pills start to engage on the rifling. I'm in Bacchus Marsh, After years of moving around, here I am and my next shift will probably be in a box, LOL. No1Mk3, I sure your drawing antedates mine, I'll know for sure when I locate it. Thanks for that info. I can't turn bullets at the moment, but the way things are heading I think I'll be buying a lathe shortly even if just to do this sort of stuff but also it'll allow me to make up other bits and pieces. Serving a four year apprenticeship and then working at my trade for forty years has to be good for something!

[bladeracer]

My case length is 0.80", the COL I need is 1.1". Much longer than that the LR pills start to engage on the rifling. I'm in Bacchus Marsh, After years of moving around, here I am and my next shift will probably be in a box, LOL. No1Mk3, I sure your drawing antedates mine, I'll know for sure when I locate it. Thanks for that info. I can't turn bullets at the moment, but the way things are heading I think I'll be buying a lathe shortly even if just to do this sort of stuff but also it'll allow me to make up other bits and pieces. Serving a four year apprenticeship and then working at my trade for forty years has to be good for something!

I looked at photos of the cartridge on some collectors sites and it doesn't look to me like a heeled bullet design. The fact that your case mouth measures .240" and the OD of the cartridge neck should be .240", meaning the case wall is 20-thou thick, makes me agree with No1Mk3, it's a problem with it being Hornet brass.

Got interrupted to feed a calf
I'm in Gippsland. When I get a chance to throw some bullets for testing (with a ladle and gas torch I can throw a handful of test bullets in a few minutes), I'll chuck some in the lathe and turn them down .220". But if you get a lathe it would make more sense to ream the brass so you can use standard bullets.

[IlovemyLE]

The O.D. of Hornet rounds measures .240". the I.D. .200, wall thickness .020. My son in law gave me 12 factory rounds to pull apart (he has another 190 just in long, never mind shorts and a couple of funny ones). These were all headstamped .297/.230L. All twelve had heels of .210 -.213 and all have a single crimping groove. They all had the two wads as shown in the drawing. The case wall thickness measured .010" . Looks like a lathe is on the go!

[bladeracer]

Don't know if it helps but I just saw a post on "The Martini Henry Society" FB page.
A guy picked up some original .297/230 cartridges.

[smlekid]

Hi I've been playing with loads for my 297/230 francotte for a while now I have the CBE mould but have found a NOE mould that shoots a lot better in my rifle https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/22 ... cavity-gc/
3grs of Unique I think will be way to hot fwiw 1.5grs of Unique with the CBE Boolit gets 1150fps over my Chrony I am currently loading 1.5grs of Winchester WSF with the 37Gr (in my alloy) NOE Boolit this gets me around 1140fps
here is a picture of my rifle at 25m

[bladeracer]

Hi I've been playing with loads for my 297/230 francotte for a while now I have the CBE mould but have found a NOE mould that shoots a lot better in my rifle https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/22 ... cavity-gc/
3grs of Unique I think will be way to hot fwiw 1.5grs of Unique with the CBE Boolit gets 1150fps over my Chrony I am currently loading 1.5grs of Winchester WSF with the 37Gr (in my alloy) NOE Boolit this gets me around 1140fps
here is a picture of my rifle at 25m

I like that.
Would love to see the rifle as well

[IlovemyLE]

Yes, I've been convinced that the Unique load is way too high. It was a figure from British Militaria Site and I've been given enough reasons to discard that load.

[Oldbloke]

Can't use AP70N in stead of unique.
ADI lists them as equivalent.

sales@centrewayfirearms.com.au Keilor East Should have some.

Interesting thread.

Edit: What other powders are you considering?

[IlovemyLE]

I've put together ten rounds using AR2205, didn't achieve much accuracy. I'll put the reloading on hold until my lathe arrives and is set up. I'll make myself a reamer to skim out the inside of the cases and knock up a couple of bits and pieces to help with the case reforming.

[No1_49er]

Yes, I've been convinced that the Unique load is way too high. It was a figure from British Militaria Site and I've been given enough reasons to discard that load.

I'm not sure that it's entirely necessary to abandon the Unique load.
The data given is for a 1.5gn load to achieve 22Rimfire velocity, which is also what smlekid found.
Yes, 3.0gn is far too much, but there seems to be enough evidence that a much smaller charge will be satisfactory. And, you have got 8kg of the stuff, so start using it up

[IlovemyLE]

No, I don't have 8lb of Unique. I was wanting to know if anyone else was interested in going shares before I did buy it. I'll stick with the AR2205, since I use that propellant in my Hornet. I'll do some chronographing and targeting once I can make up some tooling to make up the rounds more easily.

[justdave]

I'm trying LR bullets, but I don't see how I can crimp to a heeled bullet with what I have here. I tried the seating die just to get the pill in further, that's where I ran into the deformation of the pills.

maybe try carefully pusing it with the bullet in into the sizing die a little,

[justdave]

G'day IlovemyLE,
The original Morris bullet was not heeled as you can see from this 1904 drawing. The use of heeled bullets today comes from the making of brass from 22 Hornet cases, by the time you shorten the case and form it the neck is quite thick and it becomes problematic to use normal bullets without reaming the cases so the mould from CBE casts a heeled bullet. I have also had some success pulling bullets from old 22 RF both lead and jacketed HP, Cheers

i dont know about that, im pretty sure they were heeled, the 19th century ammo ive seen is all heeled, infact the chamber is also cut for a heel bullet. maybe im wrong, do you have an pics of period factory ammo thats no heeled?

[No1Mk3]

G'day justdave,
Look at the drawing I posted with that, it clearly shows a non-heeled bullet and is dated 1904. Also the post from bladeracer shows original drawings of non-heeled bullets, Cheers.