Moly or Graphite Powder?

[Wm.Traynor]

In Centrefire Rifles there is a discussion entitled "Molly Bullets" where Moly Powder is referred to as an inside neck lubricant ( INL ), "of sorts". Not sure if that is the correct way to refer to it so I have deliberately not used the contributor's name.
Is this stuff better than Powdered Graphite for an INL? I have always used PG to make inside neck resizing easier, as the expander ball passes back out through the mouth of a case. Does it matter if PG find its way in to the bore and if so, what are the consequences if any?
Ditto for Moly Powder.
BTW, at present, my PG is cleaned out of the case in a Sonic Cleaner after the resizing process.

Now do you see what you blokes have done, starting these topics about all this fancy stuff, confusing this set-in-his-ways-old-man

[Grandadbushy]

G'day Wm.Traynor mate if its for lube just for resizing well i use Graphite ,after it's done i wipe the inside of the brass neck with a cotton bud, i always use it for better ease when sizing also i've used it for years and had no adverse effects on my rifles bore, Graphites can stand extreme heat and is a lube in a sense but is not a cutting agent in any way not even when hot or diluted

[on_one_wheel]

As previously said, Graphite has better high-temperature resistance performance characteristics, however Molybdenum Disulfide powder has better wear resistance and extreme pressure resistance than Graphite powder, as such its considered the better lubricant for most applications.
Molybdenum Disulfide coatings have been known to heighten atmospheric electrochemical corrosion so that's definitely something worth thinking about.

Personally I use graphite because it works well, its an ingredient in gun powder so I have no contamination concerns, its already on my shelf, it can be bought at any hardware store and I have less health concerns when using it.

I do all my brass cleaning first to avoid scratching brass and tools

[JohnV]

The difference mainly in this application is Molly is more sticky than Graphite . Mixing Molly and lock graphite 50/50 makes a good neck lube for seating and sizing . The moly helps the graphite stick better .

[JohnV]

Molybdenum Disulfide coatings have been known to heighten atmospheric electrochemical corrosion so that's definitely something worth thinking about.

Please post your research or technical articles on this as I have never seen a problem in 30 year's of use in my firearms .
Moly does not exclude the air from the barrel steel as well as oil or grease will so , some people have just left their bores dry after shooting Moly , suffered normal rusting and then declared Moly the culprit . I have not seen any real issue like that with proper use .

[Blr243]

If I wanted to get all funky and try powdered moly as a internal neck lubrication when sizeing, where would I buy this moly ?

[SCJ429]

You could start with this article John.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/201 ... neath%20it.

[on_one_wheel]

Molybdenum Disulfide coatings have been known to heighten atmospheric electrochemical corrosion so that's definitely something worth thinking about.

Please post your research or technical articles on this as I have never seen a problem in 30 year's of use in my firearms .
Moly does not exclude the air from the barrel steel as well as oil or grease will so , some people have just left their bores dry after shooting Moly , suffered normal rusting and then declared Moly the culprit . I have not seen any real issue like that with proper use .

Yes molly coated projectiles are common, however somewhat related, this was not the topic discussed in this thread. The op was talking about neck sizing where the dry lube will be in contact with tooling, necks and potentially find its way into his barrel.

Its a well known and extensively documented scientific fact that Molybdenum Disulfide coatings have been known to heighten atmospheric electrochemical corrosion. I believe that its the sulphide that causes issues as sulphur will formally sulphuric acid when exposed to oxygen and moisture.

Personally I haven't done a scrap of research on the topic, I figured that if some great scientific minds have come to that conclusion and practical applications have shown it to be true then there's absolutely no point im me doing my own experiments.

A simple web search will give you plenty of reading on the topic.... I'll give you a head start https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF00727803

[JohnV]

If I wanted to get all funky and try powdered moly as a internal neck lubrication when sizeing, where would I buy this moly ?

Wheel bearing supply services and Mechanical Engineering supplies ring around and see who stocks it . Only take the fine Moly powder the course stuff is not ideal for the process .

[JohnV]

Molybdenum Disulfide coatings have been known to heighten atmospheric electrochemical corrosion so that's definitely something worth thinking about.

Please post your research or technical articles on this as I have never seen a problem in 30 year's of use in my firearms .
Moly does not exclude the air from the barrel steel as well as oil or grease will so , some people have just left their bores dry after shooting Moly , suffered normal rusting and then declared Moly the culprit . I have not seen any real issue like that with proper use .

Yes molly coated projectiles are common, however somewhat related, this was not the topic discussed in this thread. The op was talking about neck sizing where the dry lube will be in contact with tooling, necks and potentially find its way into his barrel.

Its a well known and extensively documented scientific fact that Molybdenum Disulfide coatings have been known to heighten atmospheric electrochemical corrosion. I believe that its the sulphide that causes issues as sulphur will formally sulphuric acid when exposed to oxygen and moisture.

Personally I haven't done a scrap of research on the topic, I figured that if some great scientific minds have come to that conclusion and practical applications have shown it to be true then there's absolutely no point im me doing my own experiments.

A simple web search will give you plenty of reading on the topic.... I'll give you a head start https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF00727803

Nothing really definitive in that article that relates too the situation of a bullet inside a barrel . It's not relevant because if it was I would have had several rusted out barrels by now and that never happened in the last 30 years . I have done a lot of research on the subject and relating to use in rifles and conferred with NASA and US National laboratory Los Alamos and an industrial chemist . After years of analyzing of the "potential " issues it all comes down to storage after the shooting stops .
Swab the barrel with oil when you stop shooting and it renders the whole potential of acidification a mute point .
Leave the freshly shot Moly barrel unoiled and stored in a moist environment and it will rust like any steel will .

[Blr243]

Thanks John

[Apollo]

If I wanted to get all funky and try powdered moly as a internal neck lubrication when sizeing, where would I buy this moly ?

Your local Gunshop will either have it or can order it.... Lyman Super Moly. Do a search and you will find heaps of the stuff.

Honestly, I wouldn't even bother using it as a "neck lube". It's nasty stuff to play with, very fine and messy. Just use Graphite Powder, you won't notice any change or advantage. Any time I use Moly it is always outside in the open, never in a confined area and certainly never in the reloading room inside the house. Don't get it on your hands and especially don't breath in any of the dust.

I've been Moly Coating Bullets for many years specifically for Competition Target Shooting, saves the need for cleaning during a whole match day (50 rounds). Once you start using Moly Coated Bullets you will never get it out of the Bore, it gets in the pores of the metal and no matter how much cleaning you do with whatever solvent it will always show up on a patch. It does not reduce barrel wear, it does reduce barrel friction but more to the point it reduces copper fouling. You need to use a Moly Cleaner to reduce Moly Buildup in the bore.

[Wm.Traynor]

Thank you everyone for your interesting contributions. There are a lot of informed people on this forum whose experience has not come cheaply or easily, I would think. Someone said once that it is only by asking questions that we learn. That person omitted to say that we can unearth things that we never expected to learn as this topic goes to show

[Blr243]

Thanks Apollo , sounds like nasty gear

[JohnV]

If I wanted to get all funky and try powdered moly as a internal neck lubrication when sizeing, where would I buy this moly ?

Your local Gunshop will either have it or can order it.... Lyman Super Moly. Do a search and you will find heaps of the stuff.

Honestly, I wouldn't even bother using it as a "neck lube". It's nasty stuff to play with, very fine and messy. Just use Graphite Powder, you won't notice any change or advantage. Any time I use Moly it is always outside in the open, never in a confined area and certainly never in the reloading room inside the house. Don't get it on your hands and especially don't breath in any of the dust.

I've been Moly Coating Bullets for many years specifically for Competition Target Shooting, saves the need for cleaning during a whole match day (50 rounds). Once you start using Moly Coated Bullets you will never get it out of the Bore, it gets in the pores of the metal and no matter how much cleaning you do with whatever solvent it will always show up on a patch. It does not reduce barrel wear, it does reduce barrel friction but more to the point it reduces copper fouling. You need to use a Moly Cleaner to reduce Moly Buildup in the bore.

I do not recommend any gun shop Moly as these proprietary brands can have other ingredients mixed in , you want pure moly and nothing else . You do not need to us any special Moly cleaner any solvent that lifts copper and powder fouling also shift the moly . If you are cleaning often to stop Moly build up you are ruining it's benefits . I have seen the target shooters that freak out at a black spot at the lands and scrub like maniacs to get rid of it . They do not understand Moly at all . That buildup is protecting the lands from flame erosion and bullet erosion . Moly has to build up somewhat to do it's work . It's not detrimental for at least 300 odd shots which is about as far as I have gone but others say they have fired 500 shots or more before cleaning . I agree Moly does help reduce fouling .

[JohnV]

You could start with this article John.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/201 ... neath%20it.

I don't need to read that article I know more than that writer ever will on the subject . The writer is just mainly conveying observations of other peoples experiences which anyone can do . It's helpful but not based on year's of personal use as far as I can see .

[JohnV]

If I wanted to get all funky and try powdered moly as a internal neck lubrication when sizeing, where would I buy this moly ?

Your local Gunshop will either have it or can order it.... Lyman Super Moly. Do a search and you will find heaps of the stuff.

Honestly, I wouldn't even bother using it as a "neck lube". It's nasty stuff to play with, very fine and messy. Just use Graphite Powder, you won't notice any change or advantage. Any time I use Moly it is always outside in the open, never in a confined area and certainly never in the reloading room inside the house. Don't get it on your hands and especially don't breath in any of the dust.

I've been Moly Coating Bullets for many years specifically for Competition Target Shooting, saves the need for cleaning during a whole match day (50 rounds). Once you start using Moly Coated Bullets you will never get it out of the Bore, it gets in the pores of the metal and no matter how much cleaning you do with whatever solvent it will always show up on a patch. It does not reduce barrel wear, it does reduce barrel friction but more to the point it reduces copper fouling. You need to use a Moly Cleaner to reduce Moly Buildup in the bore.

I disagree , it does reduce barrel wear I have barrels that prove it . If used properly the coating can reduce fire cracking of the steel surface . I agree that people should wear a dust mask when moly coating . As a neck lube graphite works ok but add a bit of moly in the mix and it makes it stick on better .

[JohnV]

Thanks Apollo , sounds like nasty gear

He is exaggerating . If your process is good , with the right gear and you wear a dust mask it's easy to do and get good results . If it suits how you shoot .

[SCJ429]

You could start with this article John.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/201 ... neath%20it.

I don't need to read that article I know more than that writer ever will on the subject . The writer is just mainly conveying observations of other peoples experiences which anyone can do . It's helpful but not based on year's of personal use as far as I can see .

You need to know that the author of the article is Glen Zediker who died last year. He was a highly accomplished target shooter and published author of many books including ones about reloading. He used moly coating and provided his observations for those who have an open mind.

You love it and want to preach about its benefits. Good for you but don't think that you are the authority on the subject. Have some humility and understand what people like Glen have accomplished.

[JohnV]

That makes no difference and my statement about his article still stands , what else he has done I have not commented on .
You are blinded by celebrity and fame , thinking that they must know everything just because they are famous .
I worked with scientists from NASA and National Laboratory Los Alamos and an industrial Chemist to build my understanding of MoS2 not some reloading guide writer . Have you ever heard of ghost writers sport . Once people get some fame they have other people write books for them . Anyone can tumble some bullets in Moly and get a bit of a coating going but that does not mean they know anything about the science or proper processes or proper applications . The only closed mind is YOURS .
Read this thread and the Moly Bullet thread , I have given way more detailed information about how and when to use moly than anything in Glen's article and we have only scratched the surface . However I am now not inclined to post my research or process .

[on_one_wheel]

You could start with this article John.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/201 ... neath%20it.

I don't need to read that article I know more than that writer ever will on the subject . The writer is just mainly conveying observations of other peoples experiences which anyone can do . It's helpful but not based on year's of personal use as far as I can see .

righto... I'll just sit back and await your book on the subject to be released then

[JohnV]

You could start with this article John.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/201 ... neath%20it.

I don't need to read that article I know more than that writer ever will on the subject . The writer is just mainly conveying observations of other peoples experiences which anyone can do . It's helpful but not based on year's of personal use as far as I can see .

righto... I'll just sit back and await your book on the subject to be released then

I have already basically done that but not published but one thing for sure you are not seeing any of my research .
Point me to who wrote a book on MoS2 ?

[on_one_wheel]

You could start with this article John.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/201 ... neath%20it.

I don't need to read that article I know more than that writer ever will on the subject . The writer is just mainly conveying observations of other peoples experiences which anyone can do . It's helpful but not based on year's of personal use as far as I can see .

righto... I'll just sit back and await your book on the subject to be released then

I have already basically done that but not published but one thing for sure you are not seeing any of my research .
Point me to who wrote a book on MoS2 ?

I why would I waste my time looking for comprehensive study literature on MoS2 ?
Its become obvious you'd already know more than the author... whoever that may be, I'm probably just better of asking you

[JohnV]

You can't point to any book written specifically on MoS2 . Most of the information is within technical papers written by scientists .
And yes you would be better off just asking me because I have made a long study of the subject from the shooters aspect right up to the scientific , atomic and chemical level . Then I condensed all that scientific mubo jumbo into instructions any shooter can understand and follow . That took many years to do and probably 100 emails or more to scientists and industrial chemist and many hours deciphering scientific jargon .
The trouble with most books is they are 90% full of unrelated rubbish that just confuses the average shooter when all the shooter needs is a few pages of the real guts of the matter , written by a shooter for shooters , but here's the kicker you will never see it now . I don't mind criticism from someone offering their tips and knowledge but people who just link other peoples work and criticize without adding anything to the thread s**t me .

[SCJ429]

You have to wonder why someone would object to a link to a world authority providing information that differs to their opinions. Here is a link to David Tubbs selling a bullet coating he claims is better than moly. David competes and wins which speaks volumes.

http://www.davidtubb.com/bn-boron-coating

[JohnV]

Again blinded by celebrity and open to sales talk . David is a business man that makes his living from shooting products , he is never going to say anything bad about any of his products or advise you to go anyplace else . He does sell some good stuff but with every salesman their stuff is always better than what you have now . David Tubb was a champion shooter because he had exceptional eyesight that the normal person could not match . David Tubb is not a scientist . So go ahead take your advice from the sales brochure . I will take mine from Scientist's that put astronauts on the moon and have degrees in chemistry .

[SCJ429]

Scientists who put astronauts on the moon? That was 50 years ago, they must be in their 90s.

David Tubbs wins because he is a talented shooter, anyone can see as well as him with a small purchase from Nightforce.

If we cannot trust an impartial champion shooter who shares his experience like Glen and we cannot trust a champion shooter who works in the industry selling bullet coating products but we should keep an open mind and accept the word of some guy on the net who doesn't compete at all.

I understand that you love moly and it works for you. The rest of the world has moved on.

[Larry]

Moly was used extensively for a few years is the Full bore Target rifle f class comps for a few years. probably over 10 years ago now. Now it is used by maybe one or two old blokes that dont like to change the way they do things. If it was so good and improved scores it would still be common practice used by the winners. Results on the target say it is no advantage.