Lee collet die for my 308 pump

[Blr243]

I’m soon expecting 400 once fired ppu cases in th mail. The last time all the FLS lubing and sizeing did my head in because it took forever and there’s certain elements of reloading that I find a real chore ...esp high volume...it entered my mind a moment ago that it could be quicker and lubeless if I just neck sized them in a collet die. Then I could make up some dummy rounds with a few and if I have no chambering/ cycling issues I can proceed to do the lot ......if anyone can see any pitfalls with my proposal, fire away.....

[AZZA'S HJ47]

Thats the risk that you would have to deal with. Sure neck sizing would be quicker but that works providing the chamber of the rifle is identical.

Best off full lenght sizing may take a while but its the only way to be sure that your rounds will chamber

[Blr243]

True, Azza. I forgot about that fired case being his chamber size and not mine. He is a more precision type shooter Than me , hopefully my pump is slightly on the sloppy side.

[bladeracer]

I’m soon expecting 400 once fired ppu cases in th mail. The last time all the FLS lubing and sizeing did my head in because it took forever and there’s certain elements of reloading that I find a real chore ...esp high volume...it entered my mind a moment ago that it could be quicker and lubeless if I just neck sized them in a collet die. Then I could make up some dummy rounds with a few and if I have no chambering/ cycling issues I can proceed to do the lot ......if anyone can see any pitfalls with my proposal, fire away.....

I did similar with .223Rem, I bought 400+ once-fired mixed and cycled them all through my rifle's chamber first. The ones that wouldn't allow the bolt to close got the shoulders bumped until they did.
Then I collet neck sized as usual.
If the case is too long to the shoulder, neck-sizing it won't make it fit, try them all first in the chamber.

[Oldbloke]

I would chamber a dozen or so and if your lucky and they all chamber with little or no resistance i would neck size. If tight FLS.

[JohnV]

The best way to proceed in addition too the collet die is also buy a Redding body die . That way you can separate the two sizing operations , which you think is more tedious buts it's not , because it's far easier on the arm . This also allows you to neck size for a few shots then touch up the body to get back to easy chambering . Or you can just body size the minimum amount each reload to get good reliable chambering . This also does less work hardening to the brass especially the necks as there is no crush down and expand up of the necks like when using a standard die . I have been loading like this since about 1972 when I made my first body die from a Lyman FLS die by cutting it off at the end of the neck and drilling it out too .010 bigger than a loaded neck diameter . Rough but it works , still got it somewhere as a keep sake in my die boxes . A body die is so cheap to buy now that I have replaced the other dies I made with a Redding die .
Redding produced body dies in secret for comp shooters for over 15 years because they stole the idea .
Once you have the Collet die and a body die you will not use a FLS again for actual loading . Maybe for case forming .
The best kind of press for using a Lee collet die is one that goes over center , like an RCBS . You can still size with any press strong enough with the constant force method but there is no distinct lockup finishing point and as your arm tires you get variations in sizing . Get proper advice on how to use a Lee Collet die from people who are using them successfully . The Lee instructions that come with the die are crap .

[Blr243]

Thanks men. John v. I have a question for you. I can definitely see the advantages of your process... If I decide not to pursue the body die route, and I have some that will chamber and some that will Not , if I just use the FLS dies I have to bump size the cases to make them cooperate , does that cause any issues? I’m aware it’s better In a batch to have exactly the same case prep on all of them ....I did notice that one of my local gun shops have a body die for sale for 70 bucks. Is lube better applied on a body die process? I can’t imagine it’s safe not to use lube while useing a body die

[JohnV]

Thanks men. John v. I have a question for you. I can definitely see the advantages of your process... If I decide not to pursue the body die route, and I have some that will chamber and some that will Not , if I just use the FLS dies I have to bump size the cases to make them cooperate , does that cause any issues? I’m aware it’s better In a batch to have exactly the same case prep on all of them ....I did notice that one of my local gun shops have a body die for sale for 70 bucks. Is lube better applied on a body die process? I can’t imagine it’s safe not to use lube while using a body die

If you take a few tight cases and set the FLS size die to size enough to re-chamber easy but without excessive set back of the shoulder then just run all the cases through on that setting , some will just size less than others .
You have to sneak up on the right die setting a small movement at a time so it all of a sudden chambers easy but after say a 1/16 turn down of the die ( 7/8 x 14 TPI ) which is about .0045 . That way you know you have not overshot .
The problem with FLS dies is that friction in the neck expander ball can sometimes bulge the shoulder out a bit so you end up having to size down further than you actually need , to get it to chamber right . Body dies don't have that issue and you can size the smallest amount you like to get the job done .
You should polish up inside the necks with fine steel wool on a jag in an electric screw driver so they are bright and super clean , polish up the outer neck by hand and wipe clean and dip the necks in a Moly Graphite 50/50 mix . Run your fingers around the outside neck and the grease of your fingers helps it stick better , tap the case gently if any is lodged in the open case neck . Then roll the body off the case on a case lube pad or you could use One Shot after lubing the necks but let it dry . Once you have done a few cases with the Moly Graphite mixture it coats up the die neck area and the expander ball and smooth's things up . Moly and Graphite have no detrimental effect on gun powder .
Also with a body die and Collet die you would only have to lightly lube the case body which makes the job easier .

[JohnV]

I’m soon expecting 400 once fired ppu cases in th mail. The last time all the FLS lubing and sizeing did my head in because it took forever and there’s certain elements of reloading that I find a real chore ...esp high volume...it entered my mind a moment ago that it could be quicker and lubeless if I just neck sized them in a collet die. Then I could make up some dummy rounds with a few and if I have no chambering/ cycling issues I can proceed to do the lot ......if anyone can see any pitfalls with my proposal, fire away.....

I did similar with .223Rem, I bought 400+ once-fired mixed and cycled them all through my rifle's chamber first. The ones that wouldn't allow the bolt to close got the shoulders bumped until they did.
Then I collet neck sized as usual.
If the case is too long to the shoulder, neck-sizing it won't make it fit, try them all first in the chamber.

One issue I have come across with once fired 223 brass is damage to the rims from firing in automatic weapons . The case can fail to extract when the extractor lines up right on the damaged section and other times extracts ok . Inspect all the rims and if any look ripped or damaged don't use those ones .

[bladeracer]

Yes, buying commercial once-fired can come with its own problems. I buy from shooters rather than commercial operations. Fox shooters are a good source of the smaller capacity rifle cases, all fired in one chamber, and often all the same factory load so consistency is excellent. The .223 deal I bought was not "as advertised", but the price was excellent and I got some good batches of quality brass out of it. Some of it had been deprimed and sized already, and some had clearly been loaded several times before. From memory, the mix was from seventeen brands, from Sako and Norma down to some stuff I wouldn't expect to see factory ammo in Australia. I don't recommend buying Federal in military chamberings due to the primer crimp adding a layer of work, but it's only a glitch during the first processing and isn't a deal breaker.

I much prefer to start with several hundred new cases for a firearm, but will grab really good deals on once-fired when I see them. Pistol chamberings are generally okay in once-fired (though the milspec crimped primers are still a problem).

I’m soon expecting 400 once fired ppu cases in th mail. The last time all the FLS lubing and sizeing did my head in because it took forever and there’s certain elements of reloading that I find a real chore ...esp high volume...it entered my mind a moment ago that it could be quicker and lubeless if I just neck sized them in a collet die. Then I could make up some dummy rounds with a few and if I have no chambering/ cycling issues I can proceed to do the lot ......if anyone can see any pitfalls with my proposal, fire away.....

I did similar with .223Rem, I bought 400+ once-fired mixed and cycled them all through my rifle's chamber first. The ones that wouldn't allow the bolt to close got the shoulders bumped until they did.
Then I collet neck sized as usual.
If the case is too long to the shoulder, neck-sizing it won't make it fit, try them all first in the chamber.

One issue I have come across with once fired 223 brass is damage to the rims from firing in automatic weapons . The case can fail to extract when the extractor lines up right on the damaged section and other times extracts ok . Inspect all the rims and if any look ripped or damaged don't use those ones .

[JohnV]

Nice going Bladeracer , when you know how to case prep well the mixed brands does not make much difference in hunting situations .

[Blr243]

I bought a collet die today for my necks. And tomorrow I’m getting a body die to bump the shoulders .... I like the idea of pushing the shoulder back to where I want it and then compressing the neck to where I want it. Alternatively aFLS die over compresses the neck and then stretches it b ack again as the ball is dragged thru it. A bit of unessessary over working on think Regardless of advice I receive and cleaning and lubing of insides of necks I have always struggled with that ball dragging thru my necks. It just ain’t feeling right. And on things like 22250 and 243 a tiny bit of excess lube plays havoc with my powder filling......let’s all b nice to this new bloke John v sounds like he’s a worthwhile and competent contributor... So I’m really looking forward to my body die then neck collet die approach ..probably will report back here tomorrow night

[JohnV]

I like someone who appreciates experience and training . You will love the system once you get to know how to setup right .
Using The Lee Collet Die

I started using Lee collet dies when they first came on the market and have found that they are very good for the purposes for which they were designed .
I have found that there is a lack of understanding of how to use the die properly and as a result people fail to see the advantages that the die can deliver over standard neck sizing dies.
This is not the fault of the product , it is just a lack of understanding of how the die works and what it will feel like when you operate the press correctly.
Standard dies use a neck expanding ball on the decapping rod and size by extruding the neck through a hole and then drag the expander ball back through the inside neck.
The collet die achieves neck sizing by using a split collet to squeeze the outside of the case neck onto a central mandrel which has the decapping pin in it’s base .
One advantage is that there is no stretching or drawing action on the brass.
The inside neck diameter is controlled by the diameter of the mandrel and to some extent by the amount of adjustment of the die and the pressure applied to the press .
This results in less misalignment than can occur in standard dies because of any uneven neck wall thickness in the cases .
Cases will last longer in the neck area and require less trimming. If cases have very uneven neck wall thickness then this can cause problems for the collet die they definitely work smoother and more accurately with neck turned cases but it is not essential.
When you first receive the die unscrew the top cap and pull it apart check that everything is there also that the splits in the collet have nothing stuck in them then inspect the tapered surface on the top end of the collet and the internal taper of the insert to make sure there are no metal burs that might cause it to jamb.
Next get some good quality high pressure grease and put a smear onto the tapered surface of the collet .
Put it back together and screw it into the press just a few threads for now . The best type of press for this die is a press of moderate compound leverage that travels over centre .
Over centre means that when the ram reaches its full travel up it will stop and come back down a tiny amount even though the movement on the handle is continued through to the stop .
eg. is an RCBS Rockchucker.
This arrangement gives the best feel for a collet die sizing operation.
Place the shell holder in the ram and bring the ram up to full height then screw the die down until the collet skirt just touches on the shell holder , then lower the ram .
Take a case to be sized that has a clean neck inside and out and the mouth chamfered and place it in the shell holder.
Raise the ram gently feeling for resistance if none , lower the ram.
Screw the die down a bit at a time .
If you get lock up ( ram stops before going over centre) before the correct position is found then back it off and make sure the collet is loose and not jammed up in the die before continuing then raise the ram feeling for any resistance , keep repeating this until you feel the press handle resist against the case neck just at the top of the stroke as the press goes over centre and the handle kinder locks in place .
This takes much less force than a standard die and most people don’t believe any sizing has taken place .
Take the case out and try a projectile of the correct caliber to see how much sizing has taken place.
If it’s still too loose adjust the die down one eighth of a turn lock it finger tight only and try again .
Once the die is near the correct sizing position it takes very little movement of the die to achieve changes in neck seating tension .
This is where most people come undone , they move the die up and down too much and it either locks up or doesn’t size at all .
It will still size a case locking it up but you have no control over how much pressure is applied and some people lean on the press handle to the point of damaging the die. A press like the RCBS Rockchucker , that goes over centre each time gives you a definite stopping point for the ram and the pressure that you apply .
There is a small sweet spot for correct collet die adjustment and you must find it , once found , how sweet it is ! Advantages : With a press that travels over centre it is possible to adjust the neck seating tension within a very limited zone. No lubricant is normally required on the case necks during sizing .

If you still cant get enough neck tension to hold the bullet properly for a particular purpose then you will have to polish down the mandrel.
Be careful polishing the mandrel down and only do it a bit at a time as a few thou can be removed pretty quickly if you overdo it.
You can't get extra neck tension by just applying more force. The amount of adjustment around the sweet spot is very limited and almost not noticeable without carrying out tests.
For example , to go from a .001 neck tension to a .002 or .003 neck tension you would be talking about polishing down the mandrel.

There are some other advantages but I will leave you the pleasure of discovering them .
One disadvantage that I have found with the collet die is that it needs good vertical alignment of the case as it enters the die or case damage may result so go slowly.
Also some cases with a very thick internal base can cause problems with the mandrel coming in contact with the internal base before the sizing stroke is finished.
If pressure is continued the mandrel can push up against the top cap and cause damage . If you are getting lock up and cant get the right sizing sweet spot, then check that the mandrel is not too long for the case you can place a washer over the case and onto the shell holder and size down on that.
It will reduce the length of neck sized and give the mandrel more clearance. If it sizes Ok after adding the washer then the mandrel could be hitting the base.
This is not usually a problem once you learn how to use them .
The harder the brass is the more spring back it will have so very hard brass will exhibit less sizing than soft brass because it will spring away from the mandrel more. If this is happening to excess then use new cases or anneal the necks.
Freshly annealed brass can drag on the mandrel a bit in certain cases because it will spring back less and result in a tighter size diameter.
I have experienced it. I then use some dry lube on the inside and outside if I get any dragging effect . Normally you don’t need lube.
I make up a special batch of 50/50 Moly , graphite mix. Rub your fingers around the neck and It sticks very well to the necks by just dipping it in and out and tapping it to clear the inside neck . After a few cases it coats up the mandrel .
Other dry lubricants would work also.
Use the same process for normal neck sizing also.

I noticed a definite improvement in the accuracy of my 22-250Rem. as soon as I started using a Lee collet die instead of my original standard neck die.
Readers are encouraged to utilize the benefits of responsible reloading at all times. Although the author has taken care in the writing of these articles no responsibility can be taken by the author or publisher as a result of the use of this information.
© 21/01/2002. I hold the copyright because I wrote it .
*****

[JohnV]

The Body Sizing Die .

Written by John V 12 / 11 / 01 c .
The Redding (reg.) Body die has a standard 7/8 x14 mounting thread and differs from standard Full length sizing dies by the amount of the case that it sizes and the fact that it has no decapping rod . It is designed to only size from the junction of the case neck and shoulder to near the base of the case .
Neck sizing and decapping is achieved in a separate die.
The separation of the two sizing operations and the fact that you never perform a full length sizing again means that the fire formed fit of the cases in the chamber is preserved to a greater degree and the neck area is not disturbed because the cases are getting a bit tight and need sizing .
Work hardening of the brass is reduced especially in the neck area which is good for accuracy, changes in neck tension over successive reloads is reduced also.
Case life is increased also in the milder loads.
Using the body die is similar to a standard full length die but it is much easier to adjust. There is no neck sizing resistance to compress or stretch the case and upset head space and no decapping rod to adjust.
As a result you can push the case to be sized, the minimum distance that you require to achieve a nice fit back in the chamber .
Cases that are excessively tight can be pushed further into the die to just bump the shoulder back enough to allow easy chambering .
A good fit of case to chamber in a bolt action rifle that preserves accuracy is achieved when you can just feel slight resistance as you close the bolt but the bolt does close completely to a full lockup position.
Also the effort required to size with a Body die is far less than the effort required to use a standard Full Length sizing die .
The same precautions that you would take with a full length die to avoid excessive head space apply equally to body dies.
Never ever push a dirty or unlubricated case into a sizing die as you may never get it out easily.
Use a very thin coating of a good quality sizing lubricant such as RCBS (reg.) case lube before sizing a case.
The Body die works hand in hand with partial neck sizing where you size only a portion of the length of the case neck .
Bushing dies are very good for partial neck sizing as you can stop any place you like as long as you have enough neck length sized and neck tension to hold the projectile concentric and secure for the purpose for which the ammunition will be used , don’t overdo this partial neck sizing, as concentricity is very important and if the grip on the bullet is too short the seater die may have trouble seating straight and just working the ammunition through the action can ruin the concentricity and therefore the accuracy .
As a general rule for non bench rest reloading a minimum of two thirds of any case neck should be sized to hold the projectile.
Once you have settled on a certain length of neck sizing you don’t want to ruin it every time you use a standard full length sizing die.
It`s important that reloaders understand the difference between Body sizing dies and standard Full length sizing dies.
The Body die does not touch or size any part of the neck of a cartridge case.
Once you understand the difference the benefits become more obvious.

Redding’s description of the die on their website is slightly misleading as to it's true function , " Body dies are designed to full length resize the case body and bump the shoulder position for proper chambering without disturbing the case neck ". Copyright Redding.

This should read, Body dies are designed to resize from the junction of the neck and shoulder to near the base, and will bump the shoulder position for proper chambering if required, without sizing any part of the case neck.
Readers are encouraged to utilize the benefits of responsible reloading at all times. Although the author has taken care in the writing of these articles no responsibility can be taken by the author or publisher as a result of the use of this information.

[Blr243]

Good write up John. Thanks for taking the time. I’m goin to screenshot it. And save it. Unfortunately trying to get hold of a body die during covid is doin my head in. I was not really wanting to ruin my FLS DIE by drilling out the neck Of it but it just might have to happen. I was thinking of useing a drill a fraction bigger than the OD of a fired case

[JohnV]

Hope it helps you . It's no real work now because I wrote that stuff many years ago . Commercial body dies are about .010 bigger than the OD of a loaded round . However as long as the clearance is enough that it don't do any sizing of the neck on a fired case it will do the job ok. I would advise you to be patient and wait for the Redding body die and keep the FLS die unmodified . Buy it online and get it posted to you or courier .