Sideways projectiles

Reloading equipment, methods, load data, powder and projectile information.

Sideways projectiles

Post by Jimbo51 » 25 Apr 2021, 10:46 am

I am having fun trying to get 180gn HRBC coated lead to hit the target square. Was using 2206H 32gn no gas check the projectiles didn't even get on paper at 100ryds.
was told load too hot. Email to ADI they advised I tryAPS450 pistol powder start at 9gn. well still have sideways hitting target.
Have even tried gas checking them rounds will not camber so pulled all again back to the drawing board. Any ideas please. Do not want to stuff another rifle
put 18gn and jammed the bolt rifle dead.
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Re: Sideways projectiles

Post by Oldbloke » 25 Apr 2021, 3:08 pm

Do I read this right?
You tried 9gn which was recommended by ADI.

Then tried 18gr?

Edit, and what is the cartridge?
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Re: Sideways projectiles

Post by SCJ429 » 25 Apr 2021, 3:17 pm

Might be a straight walled case if he is using a pistol powder.
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Re: Sideways projectiles

Post by Blr243 » 25 Apr 2021, 4:35 pm

Traditional bamboo pole musket ? Peep sights ? Range? Twist rate ? More info please .........then solution will likely follow
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Re: Sideways projectiles

Post by bladeracer » 25 Apr 2021, 5:12 pm

Jimbo51 wrote:I am having fun trying to get 180gn HRBC coated lead to hit the target square. Was using 2206H 32gn no gas check the projectiles didn't even get on paper at 100ryds.
was told load too hot. Email to ADI they advised I tryAPS450 pistol powder start at 9gn. well still have sideways hitting target.
Have even tried gas checking them rounds will not camber so pulled all again back to the drawing board. Any ideas please. Do not want to stuff another rifle
put 18gn and jammed the bolt rifle dead.



My guess is the bullet is too long for your twist rate. What is the cartridge (.30-30?), what is the twist rate, and how long is the bullet?

What possessed you to jump straight to a double charge?
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Re: Sideways projectiles

Post by ob1 » 25 Apr 2021, 5:16 pm

More info needed, as others have said.

The projectile should be spin stabilised when it leaves the barrel. If it is not, this can be caused by the projectile being too small in diameter to engage the rifling properly to spin it up to stability.

Incorrect selection of projectile diameter, too much crimp shrinking the original diameter, leading in the barrel shrinking the projectile as it moves past, whatever, could all be reasons for tumbling.

You need to slug your barrel first and check the size. You can do this using a soft lead sinker pushed through the barrel. Check this slug against projectile diameter measured after pulling the projectile from a loaded round and see what you have. You want the projectile to be sufficient diameter along a sufficient length of the projectile to firmly engage the rifling in the barrel.
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Re: Sideways projectiles

Post by snag » 25 Apr 2021, 5:33 pm

Something not right about this post ....
The pen may be mightier than the sword, but personally I prefer the .30/30 Winchester.
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Re: Sideways projectiles

Post by Wm.Traynor » 25 Apr 2021, 7:12 pm

snag wrote:Something not right about this post ....


32gn 2206H with a 180gn l e a d bullet!
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Re: Sideways projectiles

Post by Tiger650 » 25 Apr 2021, 7:22 pm

snag wrote:Something not right about this post ....


Agreed Snag but if we respond as Gentlemen any clowns will skulk off unsatisfied.

Wasting good folk's time is unfortunately gratifying for the pitiful.
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Re: Sideways projectiles

Post by LawrenceA » 25 Apr 2021, 7:41 pm

Tiger650 wrote:
snag wrote:Something not right about this post ....


Agreed Snag but if we respond as Gentlemen any clowns will skulk off unsatisfied.

Wasting good folk's time is unfortunately gratifying for the pitiful.

:thumbsup: :drinks:
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Re: Sideways projectiles

Post by in2anity » 25 Apr 2021, 8:48 pm

21_2206H.jpeg
21_2206H.jpeg (684.93 KiB) Viewed 4223 times


16_2207_L.jpeg
16_2207_L.jpeg (630.84 KiB) Viewed 4223 times


In a microgroove 30/30, using checkless lead, AR2207 is better. AR2206H is just fractionally too slow burning.
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: Sideways projectiles

Post by LawrenceA » 25 Apr 2021, 8:58 pm

16_2207_L.jpeg


In a microgroove 30/30, using checkless lead, AR2207 is better. AR2206H is just fractionally too slow burning.[/quote]
Damn I like that!!!
Gunna have to try for myself.
Any idea of the velocity you are achieving?
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Re: Sideways projectiles

Post by in2anity » 25 Apr 2021, 9:00 pm

LawrenceA wrote:
16_2207_L.jpeg


In a microgroove 30/30, using checkless lead, AR2207 is better. AR2206H is just fractionally too slow burning.

Damn I like that!!!
Gunna have to try for myself.
Any idea of the velocity you are achieving?[/quote]

Was about 1500fps, from memory LawrenceA.
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: Sideways projectiles

Post by LawrenceA » 25 Apr 2021, 9:02 pm

in2anity wrote:
LawrenceA wrote:
16_2207_L.jpeg


In a microgroove 30/30, using checkless lead, AR2207 is better. AR2206H is just fractionally too slow burning.

Damn I like that!!!
Gunna have to try for myself.
Any idea of the velocity you are achieving?


Was about 1500fps, from memory LawrenceA.[/quote]
Can run pure lead at that rate!
:clap: Sweet!
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Re: Sideways projectiles

Post by in2anity » 25 Apr 2021, 9:04 pm

LawrenceA wrote:Can run pure lead at that rate!
:clap: Sweet!


They were hard cast alloy, not pure lead. BH of around 15.

Also, before each shot, try bumping the buttstock on the ground to get the powder stacked back onto the primer.
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: Sideways projectiles

Post by LawrenceA » 25 Apr 2021, 9:06 pm

in2anity wrote:
LawrenceA wrote:Can run pure lead at that rate!
:clap: Sweet!


They were hard cast alloy, not pure lead. BH of around 15.


Yes I did read that. but at 1500 pure will usually run fine. :thumbsup:
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Re: Sideways projectiles

Post by rc42 » 26 Apr 2021, 10:02 am

From ADI's advice I'd guess that this is a 44 Magnum cartridge, the safe and max load figures for APS450 and 180gn projectiles are 8.6gn and 10.1gn, it would have to be a pistol caliber for them to even recommend APS450, although its a bogus recommendation as they no longer make it and no dealers seem to have any in stock (except maybe some rural ones that don't have web sites).

I suspect that 32gn 2206 would either be much too slow because the powder isn't fully burned so the under speed projectile wouldn't be spinning fast enough to stabilize so would be prone to tumbling in flight, or the projectile is being pushed too fast and the rifling is stripping the outer coating from the projectile instead of gripping it and again not spinning it fast enough. 100yards is pushing accuracy for 44 Mag in ideal conditions so it's not surprising that this load isn't getting onto the paper.


18gn of APS450, twice the ADI recommendation! That would be interesting to watch from a safe distance, there's a TV program called Jackass that might be interested in filming it.


Jimbo - there will be lots of ideas here but we'd need more details about what you are trying to do, what firearm you are using and what powders and reloading equipment you have access to.
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Re: Sideways projectiles

Post by in2anity » 26 Apr 2021, 10:31 am

ooooh yeah, lots of extra pepper for your smoko if you are trying AR2206H in the 44mag, AR2205 is as slow as you can go, even for rifle length barrels.
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Re: Sideways projectiles

Post by Gamerancher » 26 Apr 2021, 11:08 am

" 100yards is pushing accuracy for 44 Mag ", really????
I'll have to tell everyone that shoots one in lever-gun silhouette at 200m rams that. :unknown:
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Re: Sideways projectiles

Post by rc42 » 26 Apr 2021, 12:46 pm

Center fire silhouette targets are large pieces of metal that just have to be hit somewhere to topple them, 44 Mag can be good enough at those distances if you know the sight settings but the bullet drop is huge and 'accurate' isn't a word I'd use, the average shooter using that caliber for hunting at those distances would be irresponsible.
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Re: Sideways projectiles

Post by Jimbo51 » 26 Apr 2021, 3:49 pm

Ok thanks everyone the cartridges are S&B .303, powder is APS 450, projectiles are HRBC 180gn 311, the rifle was a Sparbrook 1906 not sure of the number of groves or the twist of this rifle The thinking was that as I was hitting the target sideways I needed more powder.
But as I have learnt more is not the way to go.
the first loads I did with out a gas check when using a check the round would not chamber all way so have pulled them and re neck sized the cases awaiting ideas.
Maybe just bin the twenty cases and start with new ones.
Thanks for you assistance.
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Re: Sideways projectiles

Post by LawrenceA » 26 Apr 2021, 4:25 pm

Jimbo51 wrote:Ok thanks everyone the cartridges are S&B .303, powder is APS 450, projectiles are HRBC 180gn 311, the rifle was a Sparbrook 1906 not sure of the number of groves or the twist of this rifle The thinking was that as I was hitting the target sideways I needed more powder.
But as I have learnt more is not the way to go.
the first loads I did with out a gas check when using a check the round would not chamber all way so have pulled them and re neck sized the cases awaiting ideas.
Maybe just bin the twenty cases and start with new ones.
Thanks for you assistance.


Hey when you wrote that you started with 32gns of 2206H I knew you were talking rifle.
The drop to 10gn pistol powder is, I am guessing a try at reduced velocity loads.
A sideways bullet is a classic sign of a projectile that is unstable and projectiles are unstable, usually, when the rotational velocity is too low for the bullet length.
The solution to increasing the rotational velocity is to either increase the barrel twist or increase the muzzle velocity.
The other causes though may be that the bullet is not sealing the bore properly as it is undersize to the throat and or bore.
I would suggest slugging the throat and bore and comparing that size to the bullet diameter. Ideally the bullet should be 2 thou over the throat size.
If it is not then you will get lots of gas cutting (leading to leading and poor accuracy) and a drop in velocity.
If the bullet is overbore as required then increasing the velocity should work.
Remember the 303 was originally a blackpowder calibre and then transitioned to a 180 grain round nose before coming back to the spitzer we are familiar with.
An original Sparkbrook is probably made for the 180 grain round nose and, if anything like English military guns of the time, may be oversize.

If you truly want reduced velocity then go a lighter (read shorter) bullet that will stabilise at a lower velocity.

Sorry for the spiel. Hope it helps.
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Re: Sideways projectiles

Post by bladeracer » 26 Apr 2021, 4:38 pm

Jimbo51 wrote:Ok thanks everyone the cartridges are S&B .303, powder is APS 450, projectiles are HRBC 180gn 311, the rifle was a Sparbrook 1906 not sure of the number of groves or the twist of this rifle The thinking was that as I was hitting the target sideways I needed more powder.
But as I have learnt more is not the way to go.
the first loads I did with out a gas check when using a check the round would not chamber all way so have pulled them and re neck sized the cases awaiting ideas.
Maybe just bin the twenty cases and start with new ones.
Thanks for you assistance.


.311" might be the problem, I use .314" for cast bullets in .303 and 7.62x54R.
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Re: Sideways projectiles

Post by Larry » 26 Apr 2021, 4:56 pm

The 180 is too heavy for a lead bullet in a 303 even in a jacketed bullet it is at the upper end and would normally be pushed by 2206H or 2209 at a fair bit more than your starting load. However I would still suggest you start at the load you did. I really dont think you will be successful however with that projectile.
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Re: Sideways projectiles

Post by bladeracer » 26 Apr 2021, 5:11 pm

Larry wrote:The 180 is too heavy for a lead bullet in a 303 even in a jacketed bullet it is at the upper end and would normally be pushed by 2206H or 2209 at a fair bit more than your starting load. However I would still suggest you start at the load you did. I really dont think you will be successful however with that projectile.


.303 regulary shoots cast bullets over 200gn without difficulty.
See Rob from British Muzzleloaders for example.
https://ugetube.com/watch/feeding-your-lee-metford-or-enfield-the-303-cartridge_hOGdfScBUBaSxhn.html
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Re: Sideways projectiles

Post by bigpete » 26 Apr 2021, 5:24 pm

Larry wrote:The 180 is too heavy for a lead bullet in a 303 even in a jacketed bullet it is at the upper end and would normally be pushed by 2206H or 2209 at a fair bit more than your starting load. However I would still suggest you start at the load you did. I really dont think you will be successful however with that projectile.


Thats rubbish
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Re: Sideways projectiles

Post by bladeracer » 26 Apr 2021, 5:33 pm

bigpete wrote:
Larry wrote:The 180 is too heavy for a lead bullet in a 303 even in a jacketed bullet it is at the upper end and would normally be pushed by 2206H or 2209 at a fair bit more than your starting load. However I would still suggest you start at the load you did. I really dont think you will be successful however with that projectile.


Thats rubbish


Yep, the .303 was designed with a 215gn bullet originally.
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