Beginner question - conflicting load data

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Beginner question - conflicting load data

Post by Jaeger » 08 May 2021, 4:51 pm

Hi,

I just started reloading and find it confusing when it comes to load data from different manufacturers.

I use a Mauser M18 in 223 (22 inch barrel, 1:10 twist) and started reloading using ADI AR2206H powder.

I picked up Hornady 52gr BTHP match bullets and the ADI reloading manual doesn’t have this bullet. So I though I use the Hornady app and just use a equivalent powder type. But that’s where all the confusion starts. The ADI website states that AR2206H is similar to IMR4895 or AA2460. Both of these powders are listed on the Hornady website, but have vastly different starting and max loads. So they don’t appear to be that similar at all.

I then compared what is listed in the ADI manual vs other information for these powders. For example, ADI has a starting load of 21.0 and max of 22.6 for Barnes TSXFB 55gr. The Barnes data has 23.8 - 25.8 for IMR4895 and 21.6 - 23.6 for AA2460.

That are huge differences and now I’m really confused how to figure out a safe load for bullets not listed in the ADI manual.

Can someone enlighten me please??

Cheers,
Andi
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Re: Beginner question - conflicting load data

Post by straightshooter » 09 May 2021, 11:06 am

It's simple, just start with the data for the next heavier projectile listed and then work your way up safely if you know the signs to look for.
Everything depends on how each data provider evaluates pressure and the firearm it is tested in.
Best data comes from a universal receiver and a barrel with a SAAMI or CIP spec chamber and load cell pressure transducers with the cartridge loaded to dimensions appropriate to the relevant standard.
It can be dangerous to interchange supposedly similar powders when loads are near maximum.
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Re: Beginner question - conflicting load data

Post by Blr243 » 09 May 2021, 11:33 am

Straight shooters opening sentence is dead on.....be a little bit wary of putting long All copper projectiles Of the same weight in your loads when u are useing data designed for conventional copper/ lead projectiles. If the data specifies a starting charge for a Speer projectile and u are useing others, have a look at the difference in shape/ bearing surface. A long skinny boat tail often does not have as much surface touching The rifling as shorter flat base pills of the same weight. If I’m correct I think it’s harder for a charge to push a pill that has more engagement......sometimes if I’m trying to find unusual data for a specific purpose , I have been known to do a couple of months online research on a few different forums before I start loading. In the interests of safety , esp in uncommon uncharted territory........respect the potential pressure , research, educate yourself , and u will b fine
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Re: Beginner question - conflicting load data

Post by Oldbloke » 09 May 2021, 1:29 pm

[quote="straightshooter"]It's simple, just start with the data for the next heavier projectile listed and then work your way up safely if you know the signs to look for.
Everything depends on how each data provider evaluates pressure and the firearm it is tested in.
Best data comes from a universal receiver and a barrel with a SAAMI or CIP spec chamber and load cell pressure transducers with the cartridge loaded to dimensions appropriate to the relevant standard.
It can be dangerous to interchange supposedly similar powders when loads are near maximum.[/quote]

Summed up well. And good advice.

1. Always best to be a little conservative.
2. I only consider data from manufacturers manuals or well known authors.
3. Understand pressure signs.
4. Be wary of "mates" or "internet" data. Or confirm using a manufacturers manual.
5. If your loading unusual loads, always seek several quality sources.
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Re: Beginner question - conflicting load data

Post by bladeracer » 09 May 2021, 1:53 pm

The first thing you need to understand about load data is that all of it is individual to a specific firearm and loading technique, none of it is written in stone. A load listed by anybody as their maximum is unlikely to translate to your firearm and technique as your maximum. You may not have any pressure signs even several grains above their max, or you may start seeing pressure signs well short of their max.

Bullets come in a few designs that affect pressures, the primary one being the bullet's weight. But pressure is also affected by the bullet's friction and material, and indirectly by its length. Load data is usable for all bullets of similar weight and design, ie, data for a flat-base pointed soft-point can be used for all bullets of similar weight and bearing surface area. Switching to a ballistic-tip, or a boat-tail, or a cast bullet, or monolithic copper or brass bullet may have differences significant enough to alter pressures.

Powder equivalents do not mean you can swap them, it merely means they are useful within similar ranges of cartridge capacities, velocities and bullet weights - they are NOT interchangeable.

If you are starting out, use lowish loads, and work up to pressure signs, although there is no real need to push the limits.


Jaeger wrote:Hi,

I just started reloading and find it confusing when it comes to load data from different manufacturers.

I use a Mauser M18 in 223 (22 inch barrel, 1:10 twist) and started reloading using ADI AR2206H powder.

I picked up Hornady 52gr BTHP match bullets and the ADI reloading manual doesn’t have this bullet. So I though I use the Hornady app and just use a equivalent powder type. But that’s where all the confusion starts. The ADI website states that AR2206H is similar to IMR4895 or AA2460. Both of these powders are listed on the Hornady website, but have vastly different starting and max loads. So they don’t appear to be that similar at all.

I then compared what is listed in the ADI manual vs other information for these powders. For example, ADI has a starting load of 21.0 and max of 22.6 for Barnes TSXFB 55gr. The Barnes data has 23.8 - 25.8 for IMR4895 and 21.6 - 23.6 for AA2460.

That are huge differences and now I’m really confused how to figure out a safe load for bullets not listed in the ADI manual.

Can someone enlighten me please??

Cheers,
Andi
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Re: Beginner question - conflicting load data

Post by Oldbloke » 09 May 2021, 3:30 pm

bladeracer wrote:
.
If you are starting out, use lowish loads, and work up to pressure signs, although there is no real need to push the limits.


That's a really good point. A fox or goat will not care if the velocity is max or 80fps less.
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Re: Beginner question - conflicting load data

Post by Blr243 » 09 May 2021, 4:19 pm

Plus one for blades comment about equivalent powder charts. It would be so easy for someone to just interpret that as being the same. I think there needs to be more obvious loud warnings on powder equivalent charts. Maybe those charts should be printed out and folded into the shape of a paper aeroplane, and then aimed for the bin
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Re: Beginner question - conflicting load data

Post by Jaeger » 09 May 2021, 7:49 pm

Thank you for the good advise everyone. This cleared up a lot for me. I’ll use the ADI published data and go for a similar bullet to build up the load.
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Re: Beginner question - conflicting load data

Post by Oldbloke » 09 May 2021, 7:55 pm

Jaeger wrote:Thank you for the good advise everyone. This cleared up a lot for me. I’ll use the ADI published data and go for a similar bullet to build up the load.


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Re: Beginner question - conflicting load data

Post by SCJ429 » 10 May 2021, 4:12 pm

The good thing about 2206H is that it is very tolerant of reduced loads. As always you don't need to worry about the maximum load, just a safe place to start. You can be confident that 21 grains is safe and just keep adding powder until you get the velocity you want or see pressure signs.

Pressure is dependent on your chamber, the brass you use and how far out you seat the projectile. There are other factors like ambient temperature and other things. I would load one projectile per load and keep going in steps of 0.3 of a grain until I run out of space in the case. When you shoot them, stop at the first sign of pressure.
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Re: Beginner question - conflicting load data

Post by wanneroo » 11 May 2021, 12:51 am

Conflicting load data is very common. I have seen plenty of times what one manual shows as a max load is starting load for another manual and comparing data both often are using the same OAL and test barrel. My understanding from the old timers is loads back in the day were often hotter but of course now there is liability to consider, so reloading manuals might be conservative in their approach. Hornady seems notably conservative in their numbers overall.

What I frequently have to do is collate all the data I have and make the best judgement as to what to start with. In addition some bullets might not have a lot of data available for them so I will have to look at similar bullets and figure it out. The other thing is I use a chronograph as a data point to compare my data with the data I have from other sources. Recently loading for 300 Blackout I was able to identify some issues with one powder where I was getting some wildly fluctuating chronograph numbers so I stopped what I was doing and went back to the drawing board so to speak.
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