Can you fire over-annealed brass to hard it up? Save it?

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Can you fire over-annealed brass to hard it up? Save it?

Post by tiki » 02 Apr 2014, 3:02 pm

G'day,

Working this through in my head, might not work in reality so here is the question :D

Firing brass makes it harder, annealing it makes it softer...

Anneal it too much and your brass is too soft. Obviously if you've annealed the whole case or the heat has crept down to the head etc. I can see that it would be ruined. If it was soft enough that you fired it and the primed pocket or anything in the head got deformed it's obviously toast.

If you'd just over-annealed the necks though and had the case head in water or whatever that protected it, can you fire the over annealed brass to save the necks?

I guess they will stretch more than they should because they're soft, but you can trim that....

Can you salvage an over annealed neck? The neck only I'm talking about here, not a whole case.
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Re: Can you fire over-annealed brass to hard it up? Save it?

Post by Apollo » 02 Apr 2014, 3:20 pm

I don't anneal cases so have not experimented with various results but ....

Actually firing cases does not make them harder. Brass is work hardened by the process of sizing / working the case material. Full length sizing work hardens a lot more of the case than neck sizing. I believe if you over-anneal you destroy the physical structure of the material and you cannot rescue it.
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Re: Can you fire over-annealed brass to hard it up? Save it?

Post by Warrigul » 02 Apr 2014, 8:30 pm

Apollo wrote:I don't anneal cases so have not experimented with various results but ....

Actually firing cases does not make them harder. Brass is work hardened by the process of sizing / working the case material. Full length sizing work hardens a lot more of the case than neck sizing. I believe if you over-anneal you destroy the physical structure of the material and you cannot rescue it.


So at what stage would you say they have been over annealed Apollo? What should the OP look out for?
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Re: Can you fire over-annealed brass to hard it up? Save it?

Post by Apollo » 03 Apr 2014, 1:16 am

As I did say I don't anneal cartridge cases so I'm no expert in saying what exactly to look for to determine what degree a case may be over annealed.

Having done metallurgy many years ago gave some experience with annealing different metals and non ferous metals which behave in different ways.

I believe a cartridge case is in general a composition of 70% copper and 30% zinc but may vary between manufacturers., there is an ideal temperature at which brass will become anealed. Go over that point and there are a number of things that can happen, it will melt, it will become too soft and will loose it's property of springing back to shape and you can also break down the grain structure of the copper / zinc mixture. I do believe you can also deplete some of the zinc content permanently which will basically turn it back to copper, not brass. Some of these tests can only be proven under microscopic examination.

So, at what stage is it over annealed. It got too hot. There is a not so complicated test that can be done with a pair of vice grips starting off with a brand new case and set them just to apply pressure to the case neck enough to very slightly deform the neck and when released the brass should spring back to it's original shape. A properly annealed case should basically do the same but if it is over annealed it will stay deformed as it's too soft and has lost it's spring back properties. This is required with a cartridge case to one provide tension to the seated bullet, second allow the neck to expand and spring back so it can be extracted from the rifle chamber easily.

Over annealing can also soften more than the case neck flowing down to the actual case body creating a weak spot which can lead to the sections breaking apart. Also an over annealed case when neck sizing can force the neck back into the case body efectively crushing the case shoulder since it has lost it's strength.

Depending on the amount of over annealing can cause all or any of these points and more. There are many technical acticles written on not only cartridge case annealing but annealing non ferous metals and the methods to use plus the signs that follow if it's not done correctly. I would suggest that anyone that wants to do cartridge case annealing search these articles out and spend the time absorbing the information. I will be annealing cartridge cases in the near future so I will be reading those articles in more depth taking notes but more so experimenting first hand, especially before attempting to anneal any of my more expensive cases.

A basic test, I would try the vice grip system first. If I thought a case was over annealed slightly then I would see what happens when attempting to size the full neck, not just part of it and if it didn't damage the case then I would try seating a bullet and take a close note of the feel of what pressure if any is required to seat the bullet. Naturally my In-Line Seating Die with Arbor Press would be the best to use as it gives a very fine feel of the seating pressure required. If there is no pressure required then the bullet may even fall out or at least be pulled out by hand easily. I will say that some of my target rounds are indeed like that by purpose as with some I use very little neck tension.

I have heard of a badly over annealed neck being able to be distorted with just one's fingers and it didn't spring back.

Remember cartridge spring back is required in order to remove the fired cartridge case from the chamber.

Firing a brass cartridge case in general doesn't work harden the brass to any major degree as the amount of expansion and contraction is too small to be effective. Chambers that have very loose tollerances may work the brass to a greater degree, Bit like bumping case shoulders way too far back and/or having way too much chamber head space that will hasten a much more dangerous situation like head seperation. Neck seperation at any point is really not as dangerous, just a real pain when you have to extarct the broken off neck out of the chamber without damaging the chamber finish. Here there is also a slight chance that that broken neck will be forced partly into the bore, perhaps causing a huge spike in chamber pressure before the bullet is hopefully passing down the bore.

On a further point there is a lot of debate about annealing in general being of any real advantage or having any effect on overal accuracy. Some very well known target shoots don't bother at all with case annealing, shoot their cases for a determined number of times and then replace them with new. Some also anneal their cases after every firing with the idea that it provides far better and consistant neck tension of each round fired.

There seems to be no doubt that case annealing extends the effective life of cartridge cases.

Then there is inconsistant annealing of say one side of the neck and not the whole diameter. I would be treating an over annealed case with caution without knowing just how much it was over annealed. That case has a lot of work to do subjected to say up to 60,000psi or more in the chamber.

Sorry, I could not provide a short simple answer. Perhaps someone with years of experience case annealing can.

Here is just one article that I just found that explains a little of the tips and traps of case annealing. Seems a good read if you get through it all but it's just an article.... http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html
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Re: Can you fire over-annealed brass to hard it up? Save it?

Post by tiki » 03 Apr 2014, 1:33 pm

Apollo wrote:Actually firing cases does not make them harder. Brass is work hardened by the process of sizing / working the case material.


I might have got my wires crossed there then, I thought firing did the same?

No?
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Re: Can you fire over-annealed brass to hard it up? Save it?

Post by tiki » 03 Apr 2014, 1:40 pm

Apollo wrote:Sorry, I could not provide a short simple answer. Perhaps someone with years of experience case annealing can.


Nah thanks heaps.

I appreciate the time :)

Rather spend more time reading for the full story than get a short version which doesn't help me much ;)
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Re: Can you fire over-annealed brass to hard it up? Save it?

Post by Old Fart » 03 Apr 2014, 1:56 pm

Apollo wrote:On a further point there is a lot of debate about annealing in general being of any real advantage or having any effect on overall accuracy. Some very well known target shoots don't bother at all with case annealing, shoot their cases for a determined number of times and then replace them with new


Personally I've gotta say I think it is a waste of time.

"Some of these tests can only be proven under microscopic examination."

That's about the sum of it for me.

I'm sure that from a metallurgical point of view all the information is correct. I have no doubt it does change the structure to extends the life and do all that... But... I'm not convinced though that any of that translates in any real advantage.

IMO if you have reached the point where annealing is top of the list of your priorities, you'd already be doing all the high-end stuff like weighing your brass into batches, weighing bullets, squaring your cases and turning necks and all the other work isn't needed for 98% of shooters.

Neck consistency and tension etc. is all already addressed by the other work. By then the only reason for it is for the life of the brass.

By just choosing to neck size you'll get dozens of reloads out of your brass making it cents per case. And how much time are you spending to save the brass? Hours and hours.

By the end of it I reckon your paying more in time and money for the equipment to save the brass than to just buy new brass.

That's this shooters opinion.
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Re: Can you fire over-annealed brass to hard it up? Save it?

Post by Granting » 03 Apr 2014, 1:57 pm

Apollo wrote:Some very well known target shoots don't bother at all with case annealing, shoot their cases for a determined number of times and then replace them with new.


More time to practice shooting instead of spending it annealing ;)

I know what I'd rather be doing.
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Re: Can you fire over-annealed brass to hard it up? Save it?

Post by VICHunter » 03 Apr 2014, 2:07 pm

I'm glad I only do hunting and not target shooting, so I don't have to bother with experimenting with this kind of stuff :lol:
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Re: Can you fire over-annealed brass to hard it up? Save it?

Post by tiki » 03 Apr 2014, 2:08 pm

Old Fart wrote:By the end of it I reckon your paying more in time and money for the equipment to save the brass than to just buy new brass.


That had crossed my mind...
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Re: Can you fire over-annealed brass to hard it up? Save it?

Post by Turkle » 03 Apr 2014, 2:09 pm

tiki wrote:That had crossed my mind...


Crossed it. Dominated it. Decided not to bother with annealing :lol:
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Re: Can you fire over-annealed brass to hard it up? Save it?

Post by Bills Shed » 14 Apr 2014, 10:07 am

I have tried to use over annealed brass. The case head was fine but the neck was too soft. After I had seated the projectile and placed the finished round in a plastic bullet container I found that the projectile would rattle out in the car. I was able to fire them if the pill was still in place but it was a wasted effort in the long run.

If you buy factory brass for a commercial chambering brass is easy to get. If you fire form brass from factory brass to a variant of the parent case you want to extend the life of your brass, ie hornet to Khornet or 17 hornet. Annealing defiantly extends the life of the brass and has a significant change in neck tension. Once you have built a set up to anneal the brass it is quick and easy. If you have access to a welder you can easily knock one up in a day. It does not need to be complex, just something to support your burner, if you can put a pivot in it so that it swings away from the drill it is better and Something to support a basic cordless drill. After that a tech screw driver and a bit of practice will see excellent results.

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Re: Can you fire over-annealed brass to hard it up? Save it?

Post by Warrigul » 14 Apr 2014, 10:44 am

I used to reload .303/22 and .303/25 quite a bit and did have a few where I went too for in annealing(neccesary to get .303 down to a .303/22F case size) as long as they weren't too soft to run a neck sizer down without collapsing they usually came right(neck tension wise) but it took a shot or two.

Annealing definately has its place, indeed it is an integral part of forming factory brass in the first place, but I would have to agree with a couple of the others on here that for the average reloader in an easily available factory calibre it is un neccesary.
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Re: Can you fire over-annealed brass to hard it up? Save it?

Post by VICHunter » 14 Apr 2014, 12:09 pm

Warrigul wrote:Annealing definately has its place


That's the key. Fair enough you obviously want your rifle to shoot well, but some of the lengths guys go in the 'wrong place'.

e.g. The amount of effort some guys spend trying (not necessarily suceeding) to get there hunting rifle down to 1/4 MOA I'll never under stand.

Total waste of time in my humble opinion.
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Re: Can you fire over-annealed brass to hard it up? Save it?

Post by Bills Shed » 14 Apr 2014, 12:16 pm

Warrigul wrote:Annealing definately has its place, indeed it is an integral part of forming factory brass in the first place, but I would have to agree with a couple of the others on here that for the average reloader in an easily available factory calibre it is un neccesary.


Have to agree.

I probably would not have built my gear if I did not need it.

I did not anneal anything until I got into a "odd" calibre where I had to make my own cases. The learning curve led me to annealing. It depends on have far you want to get into it. I believe in time shooting components will get vastly more expensive and we will be taxed out of existence. Shooting will be a "luxury".

The longer we can make a piece of brass last the better.

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Re: Can you fire over-annealed brass to hard it up? Save it?

Post by tiki » 16 Apr 2014, 3:13 pm

Hey Bill,

What about it being an "odd" calibre made you need to anneal it?

Softening it so you could resize it? Or getting the most life out of it because brass was limited?
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Re: Can you fire over-annealed brass to hard it up? Save it?

Post by Bills Shed » 16 Apr 2014, 6:41 pm

Hi Tiki,

Both.

I found a Sako K hornet for sale and I bought it. It came with a set of reloading dies. I did not do a lot of research on the history but I knew that I could not get factory brass.

The first hornet cases that I fire formed were not new and they all cracked when fire formed to the K chamber.

The neck and shoulders were too hard. Did some reading and spoke to people to get the good oil and then built an annealing rig. Next trial was a success. I now re annealed when the first sign of cracking of the neck appear.

I am now going to fire form for the 17 hornet so hopefully I have burned out the bugs in the process.

New brass for hornet, though not hard to find is not cheap either.

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Re: Can you fire over-annealed brass to hard it up? Save it?

Post by tiki » 17 Apr 2014, 1:24 pm

Cool. Thanks for the time Bill. Appreciate it.
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Re: Can you fire over-annealed brass to hard it up? Save it?

Post by bunnybuster » 24 Apr 2014, 12:28 pm

I'm not sure how you define "over annealed", if the brass is burnt,toss it in the scrap, no point in risking your safety for a couple of dollars. :cry:

I have annealed brass to reform 7.62 to .243, and also other cals to prolong case life. Only use a propane torch, a catch can of water and eyeball.

I never had a case with a loose neck, only let the heat line run to just below the shoulder,and drop them into the water.

Be Safe.
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