Casting my own for 4570

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Casting my own for 4570

Post by Blr243 » 04 Jun 2021, 9:01 pm

I would never cast for target loads. Too many cheap good products available. I cannot expect reliable expansion from commercial casters who are making hard Bullets to prevent leading. So I’m roof flashing lead 98 and 2 per cent Tin. I dropped a 5 kg weight from 1500 mm onto my own and onto shop bought Bullets. Field resting will have to wait for now. I’m glad to see a significant level of improved flattening in my test of theirs vs mine
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Re: Casting my own for 4570

Post by LawrenceA » 04 Jun 2021, 9:10 pm

Nice.
Suggest hard cast may expand enough depending what you are shooting and at what speed.
MP Molds do a few nice ones as well.
If you are after target loads why worry about expansion?
How hard are you pushing them? What lube?
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Re: Casting my own for 4570

Post by Blr243 » 04 Jun 2021, 9:20 pm

Minus 23 per cent height shop Bullets ....minus 45 per cent height my bullets ... I’m thinking it’s well worth the Effort to do my own. I def won’t be at the range I can’t stand it. Can’t wait to go bush again. Too much bloody work goin on at the moment ... reckon I’ll prob send these 405 bullets at maybe 1250 / 1300 FPS .. I have some gas checks but prob won’t need them. The lube is just the standard CBE LUBE I have not lubed mine yet. I will have to look into that. I’m very new to casting ... pigs are my main focus .. taking ten days off early July. I’m glad u mentioned mp moulds. I heard of them a while back
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Re: Casting my own for 4570

Post by Oldbloke » 04 Jun 2021, 9:21 pm

With 45-70, do they really need to expand? Lol
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Re: Casting my own for 4570

Post by Blr243 » 04 Jun 2021, 9:26 pm

I reckon they do ob . If I end up buying a .7 cal musket I’ll prob still be chaseing the flatted disc result. Here’s a pic of the diameter improvement mine vs shop Bullets
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Re: Casting my own for 4570

Post by Blr243 » 04 Jun 2021, 9:28 pm

Buggered if I know about all this lead exposure. Hopefully in 6 months time I will still have some Functional brain cells
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Re: Casting my own for 4570

Post by LawrenceA » 04 Jun 2021, 9:32 pm

Oldbloke wrote:With 45-70, do they really need to expand? Lol

There is a saying that a 6mm can expand but a 45 dont shrink
But why not have it expand? The old BP express bullets work well for this.

Did some 577-450's for a mate. He took out a massive boar with one of my hollow points and yes it was a perfect mushroom and on the far side under the fighting pad.
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Re: Casting my own for 4570

Post by Oldbloke » 04 Jun 2021, 9:33 pm

I was joking about the expansion. Lol.
They look great providing they shoot straight and don't lead up the barrel too much.

The key to preventing lead exposure during casting is plenty of ventilation. Do it under a porch or open a couple of the shed doors/windows. Avoid breathing the vapours.
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Re: Casting my own for 4570

Post by LawrenceA » 04 Jun 2021, 9:42 pm

1300fps is std black powder velocities.
You can easily go harder than that if you choose.
Just make sure your bullets are 2 thou over bore.
Basically you can run to about 1500 with pure lead then hard cast to like 1800 then powder coat to about 2000 then gas check to 2200 to 2400sh.
This is just rough.
Get it right and you can push harder if you like.

At 1300fps you wont get the shock and devastation of high velocity calibres. For that you need to get over 2000fps or more.
You will get good penetration and a large damn hole. I use the Gould BP express 330 grain Hollow point going at about 1800 in hard cast in my Marlin. Works well.
Mind you hit a pig in the right spot with a 45 and they dont go far.
I also hunt with a Trapdoor so Blackpowder only. Also flattens pigs.
Hoping to get an MP Thors Hammer HP mold eventually.

Jeez BLR243. I am getting all hyped for you.
Let me know how you go.
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Re: Casting my own for 4570

Post by LawrenceA » 04 Jun 2021, 9:46 pm

Blr243 wrote:I reckon they do ob . If I end up buying a .7 cal musket I’ll prob still be chaseing the flatted disc result. Here’s a pic of the diameter improvement mine vs shop Bullets

I got a 58 rifled musket and a 62 cal!
Oh and a 69! But its a ML shotty. Still shoots round ball OK.
but not a 70.
Yet!

Go pure lead.
It will flatten unless it is going too slow.
One well placed shot is all it takes.
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Re: Casting my own for 4570

Post by Blr243 » 04 Jun 2021, 10:01 pm

I did a quick math sums to give me an idea about the drop test I did to help determine the energy I got by dropping my alum round solid bar cylinder on my Bullets. It weighted 5 kgs I googled the speed stuff falls to earth and I arrived at 10 metres per second. I think that speed and 5 kilos equals about 185 foot pounds of energy to deform the bullets I tested. I have no real idea if it’s relative or not or if my assumptions/ calculations are correct
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Re: Casting my own for 4570

Post by bigpete » 04 Jun 2021, 10:03 pm

Oldbloke wrote:With 45-70, do they really need to expand? Lol

Yes they absolutely do
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Re: Casting my own for 4570

Post by Blr243 » 04 Jun 2021, 10:04 pm

If I get a musket or blackpowder or whatever it’s gotta be rifled, and have a set of sights. To me a smooth bore is just goin to be too inaccurate in the bush. I looked at one online the other day it had just a front blade no rear sight , I don’t think I could hunt with that.
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Re: Casting my own for 4570

Post by Blr243 » 04 Jun 2021, 10:07 pm

I got to thinking the other day how does one properly clean the barrel / chamber of a muzzle loader. How the bloody hell do u clean way down the bottom of a hole when u can’t break or open the action
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Re: Casting my own for 4570

Post by LawrenceA » 04 Jun 2021, 10:33 pm

Blr243 wrote:If I get a musket or blackpowder or whatever it’s gotta be rifled, and have a set of sights. To me a smooth bore is just goin to be too inaccurate in the bush. I looked at one online the other day it had just a front blade no rear sight , I don’t think I could hunt with that.


Smoothbore is fine to about 30 metres and further with practice. As effective as a rifle and more versatile.
Yeah mine have sights except the shotty of course

My 58 is a rifled musket. Surprisingly accurate. Nailed a couple of pigs with it so far.
I wanna take the matchlock hunting but I did put sights on it. Be OK in the thick but no good in the open. And I have just about finished building the rifled 50 cal.
That should be good to 100 easy with irons. If I had younger eyes and plenty of practice possibly 200.
The Whitworth was used a sniper rifle to well over 400 actually out to 1000. The 45-70 was kinda based on the Whitworth.

Shame your not nearby. I would happily take you for a blast
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Re: Casting my own for 4570

Post by bigpete » 05 Jun 2021, 6:37 am

Allegedly one of the tricks of getting a smooth bore accurate is to drive the ball a lot faster....this I've not tested as the only smoothbore muzzleloader I have is nearly 180 years old and an heirloom. But even then I get hunting accuracy to 30m with it.
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Re: Casting my own for 4570

Post by Noisydad » 05 Jun 2021, 10:41 am

Blr243 wrote:I got to thinking the other day how does one properly clean the barrel / chamber of a muzzle loader. How the bloody hell do u clean way down the bottom of a hole when u can’t break or open the action

It’s easy. You remove the barrel, unscrew the nipple and put the breech end in a bucket of Luke warm soapy water. Use a long cleaning rod with a correct size jag wrapped with a cleaning patch and start pumping water up and down the barrel. Rinse with clean water and dry the barrel and run an oily patch through.
Took longer to write this than clean a barrel.
There's still a few of Wile. E Coyote's ideas that I haven't tried yet.
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Re: Casting my own for 4570

Post by LawrenceA » 05 Jun 2021, 12:34 pm

Noisydad wrote:
Blr243 wrote:I got to thinking the other day how does one properly clean the barrel / chamber of a muzzle loader. How the bloody hell do u clean way down the bottom of a hole when u can’t break or open the action

It’s easy. You remove the barrel, unscrew the nipple and put the breech end in a bucket of Luke warm soapy water. Use a long cleaning rod with a correct size jag wrapped with a cleaning patch and start pumping water up and down the barrel. Rinse with clean water and dry the barrel and run an oily patch through.
Took longer to write this than clean a barrel.

So true yet it puts so many people off.
One well placed shot is all it takes.
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Re: Casting my own for 4570

Post by bigrich » 05 Jun 2021, 9:44 pm

i've been looking into this lead slinging thing lately . i have a 44 mag marlin on the way . been looking on "cast boolits" US forum . yanks in the know are ditching the factory marlin 1-38 microgroove barrels for 1-20 rifled barrels and pushing 300 grain plus soft lead projectiles at 1300-1400 fps . the 45-70 pushes 405 grain projectiles at around the same fps and are reknowned for penetration and energy transfer . the 44mag isn't far behind in a much smaller package . food for thought ;)
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Re: Casting my own for 4570

Post by LawrenceA » 05 Jun 2021, 10:04 pm

bigrich wrote:i've been looking into this lead slinging thing lately . i have a 44 mag marlin on the way . been looking on "cast boolits" US forum . yanks in the know are ditching the factory marlin 1-38 microgroove barrels for 1-20 rifled barrels and pushing 300 grain plus soft lead projectiles at 1300-1400 fps . the 45-70 pushes 405 grain projectiles at around the same fps and are reknowned for penetration and energy transfer . the 44mag isn't far behind in a much smaller package . food for thought ;)


I haunt Castboolits myself.
It is true the 44-40, 44mag and 45 Long colt can be loaded up pretty close to a mild 45-70 load when using light bullets.
Just like a 22 Hornet ain't far behind a 222 with 40 grainers and just like the 45-70 is close to the 458 win mag with 400 grainers
Try pushing a 405 or 500 grain pill out a 44 mag and you find the difference.

Actually a 44-40 will out perform a 44 mag if you reload.

I suppose it is the 45-70 does it easy and without much pressure or stress.
Bit like a V8 is more appealing to me than a rotary.
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Re: Casting my own for 4570

Post by bigrich » 05 Jun 2021, 10:21 pm

LawrenceA wrote:
bigrich wrote:i've been looking into this lead slinging thing lately . i have a 44 mag marlin on the way . been looking on "cast boolits" US forum . yanks in the know are ditching the factory marlin 1-38 microgroove barrels for 1-20 rifled barrels and pushing 300 grain plus soft lead projectiles at 1300-1400 fps . the 45-70 pushes 405 grain projectiles at around the same fps and are reknowned for penetration and energy transfer . the 44mag isn't far behind in a much smaller package . food for thought ;)


I haunt Castboolits myself.
It is true the 44-40, 44mag and 45 Long colt can be loaded up pretty close to a mild 45-70 load when using light bullets.
Just like a 22 Hornet ain't far behind a 222 with 40 grainers and just like the 45-70 is close to the 458 win mag with 400 grainers
Try pushing a 405 or 500 grain pill out a 44 mag and you find the difference.

Actually a 44-40 will out perform a 44 mag if you reload.

I suppose it is the 45-70 does it easy and without much pressure or stress.
Bit like a V8 is more appealing to me than a rotary.


i agree with all you 've said . however , if i can push a 300 grain soft cast slug at 1300fps out of a marlin 44 that's a lot of cast firepower out of a compact package for not a lot of powder . the big difference between 44mag and 44-40 is case life. 44-40 are known for rim/case seperation when pushed hard . 44 mag has good case life and availability. i even looked into 38-55 as a option , but variations in chamber specs and brass put me off that :thumbsup:
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Re: Casting my own for 4570

Post by Blr243 » 06 Jun 2021, 7:03 am

Hornady nosler and sierra make 300 grain Bullets for 44 cal. And CBE make moulds between 260-440 Grains for cast lead Bullets ...but not sure if they will fit into a 44 mag case or if it’s safe
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Re: Casting my own for 4570

Post by LawrenceA » 06 Jun 2021, 7:26 am

bigrich wrote:
LawrenceA wrote:
bigrich wrote:i've been looking into this lead slinging thing lately . i have a 44 mag marlin on the way . been looking on "cast boolits" US forum . yanks in the know are ditching the factory marlin 1-38 microgroove barrels for 1-20 rifled barrels and pushing 300 grain plus soft lead projectiles at 1300-1400 fps . the 45-70 pushes 405 grain projectiles at around the same fps and are reknowned for penetration and energy transfer . the 44mag isn't far behind in a much smaller package . food for thought ;)


I haunt Castboolits myself.
It is true the 44-40, 44mag and 45 Long colt can be loaded up pretty close to a mild 45-70 load when using light bullets.
Just like a 22 Hornet ain't far behind a 222 with 40 grainers and just like the 45-70 is close to the 458 win mag with 400 grainers
Try pushing a 405 or 500 grain pill out a 44 mag and you find the difference.

Actually a 44-40 will out perform a 44 mag if you reload.

I suppose it is the 45-70 does it easy and without much pressure or stress.
Bit like a V8 is more appealing to me than a rotary.


i agree with all you 've said . however , if i can push a 300 grain soft cast slug at 1300fps out of a marlin 44 that's a lot of cast firepower out of a compact package for not a lot of powder . the big difference between 44mag and 44-40 is case life. 44-40 are known for rim/case seperation when pushed hard . 44 mag has good case life and availability. i even looked into 38-55 as a option , but variations in chamber specs and brass put me off that :thumbsup:


True
Was looking to get a 44mag or 45 Long colt. If one shows up with a 16" barrel then I would be sorely tempted. But I do have a 44-40 pump and a 45-70 soooo.....
One well placed shot is all it takes.
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Re: Casting my own for 4570

Post by bigrich » 06 Jun 2021, 7:34 am

Blr243 wrote:Hornady nosler and sierra make 300 grain Bullets for 44 cal. And CBE make moulds between 260-440 Grains for cast lead Bullets ...but not sure if they will fit into a 44 mag case or if it’s safe


if you haven't looked already BLR , get onto the "cast boolits" forum and do some topic searches . a lot of yanks have been playing with all this stuff for years
it's what made me look into the 44 mag . i was interested in 45-70 and 38-55 . but i like the idea of the 44 in a compact package . hornady make 300 grain xtp's for the 44 , but they don't shoot well in marlin's cause of twist rate . microgroove is no good for lead either . henry's and rossi's run faster twist rates for heavies and can shoot lead well apparently . i've heard of CBE , they make a good range of moulds for 38-55 as well as 45-70 and will make moulds to spec for individual slugged bores i think . elmer keith developed hollow point cast lead for the 44 mag , that's something i intend looking into as well

it's definately a interesting topic , and the performance and penetration of soft cast lead on game gets my attention :thumbsup:
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Re: Casting my own for 4570

Post by Blr243 » 06 Jun 2021, 7:36 am

My home cast 405 4570 Bullets are 98 roof flashing and 2 parts tin. At 1200 FPS in a new marlin 1895 , do I have to lube or powder coat Bullets in order to prevent leading ? Or can I try dry ? ...only lube I have is CBE in a little bottle so I guess it’s very easy and quick to tumble lube them in a plastic container
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Re: Casting my own for 4570

Post by bigpete » 06 Jun 2021, 7:39 am

Blr243 wrote:My home cast 405 4570 Bullets are 98 roof flashing and 2 parts tin. At 1200 FPS in a new marlin 1895 , do I have to lube or powder coat Bullets in order to prevent leading ? Or can I try dry ? ...only lube I have is CBE in a little bottle so I guess it’s very easy and quick to tumble lube them in a plastic container

Yes you do
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Re: Casting my own for 4570

Post by Blr243 » 06 Jun 2021, 7:44 am

Thanks Pete , just gotta find me some Brass cases ...hard to source atm
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Re: Casting my own for 4570

Post by bigpete » 06 Jun 2021, 8:29 am

Don't have any empties from shooting it yet ?
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Re: Casting my own for 4570

Post by Oldbloke » 06 Jun 2021, 8:34 am

My microgroove marlin shoots them ok. But cast fairly hard.
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Re: Casting my own for 4570

Post by Blr243 » 06 Jun 2021, 1:02 pm

Big Pete I don’t have any empty cases because I did too much reloading during covid
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