Hornady outside neck turner

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Hornady outside neck turner

Post by Tiger650 » 29 Jun 2021, 3:40 pm

Order Hornady shell holders when you order the machine, the "live" spindle has a plunger which must pass through the bore of the shell holder to lock the cartridge case, RCBS and Lee etc are slightly undersize in the bore.
I thought of reducing dia of the plunger but maybe risky with LR primers, also looked at boring the RCBS shell holders but too much bother to save $24.00 for the two I needed.
A little annoying that all descriptions of the tool which I have seen [including packaged instructions] do not mention the above.
"Fit your Hornady shell holder" is the only hint you get.
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Re: Hornady outside neck turner

Post by JohnV » 04 Jul 2021, 4:58 pm

So what are you trying to achieve with neck turning on what cartridge in what kind of chamber .
There is many ways to do it.
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Re: Hornady outside neck turner

Post by Cooper » 04 Jul 2021, 8:50 pm

I have the Hornady case trimmer. Same deal with the shell holders. Need to use the Hornady ones as they have a bigger hole in middle. I had to order them in.
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Re: Hornady outside neck turner

Post by Tiger650 » 05 Jul 2021, 12:53 pm

JohnV wrote:So what are you trying to achieve with neck turning on what cartridge in what kind of chamber .
There is many ways to do it.


At the moment well flogged .223 Lapua cases going into a Remington factory chamber, light skim to reduce high spots / eccentricity which appears to be significant.

I once read that cutting back into the neck area and annealing can be used to blow out donuts but not sure I am game to try that.

Donuts are a PITA as even .005" off the lands a 69gn Sierra seats down into the bottom of the case neck and a donut afflicted case can be easily felt whilst seating that bullet.
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Re: Hornady outside neck turner

Post by JohnV » 05 Jul 2021, 4:18 pm

Ok that's good because in a factory chamber a light skim turn is all you want or need.
Removing too much brass increases the gap between the neck to the chamber wall and that's working against any improvements in more consistent neck tension . So only remove enough to give about a 75% around clean up . That gives you more consistent neck tension but does not sacrifice too much alignment because if the neck has to expand excessively to meet the chamber wall that can introduce yaw in the bullets entry into the lands . There is a way to reduce any negative of that extra gap and that is to use partial neck sizing and go to a body die for case body sizing and a separate neck sizing die adjusted to not size all the length of the neck . This allows a short section of the case neck above the shoulder to remain at or very close to chamber wall diameter after the first firing . This technique is for a bolt action not really for levers , pumps or autos .
To avoid getting donuts you must turn all the way down to the shoulder and leave a very slight skim mark on the actual shoulder angle to show that all the neck is turned right down to the junction . If you stop short then it will usually cause a donut .
I would not recommend cutting into the neck in any way to alleviate donuts . Use an inside reamer to cut any donut out . If you neck turn as above you won't get donuts from turning . Donuts can do several bad things for consistent accuracy if the bullets base squishes into it .
The image shows how the turning should look at the shoulder .
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Re: Hornady outside neck turner

Post by Tiger650 » 06 Jul 2021, 1:44 am

Cheers John
Good information.
Your photo shows what I read of a few yrs back, I may retire my well used cases and start afresh with a new batch using that method.
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Re: Hornady outside neck turner

Post by JohnV » 06 Jul 2021, 8:15 am

That's not a bad idea but use some of the old brass first to experiment with and get the turning operation working right before starting on new expensive brass . I found that after a couple of firings you could put the cases back in the neck turner at the same original setting and some would clean up a bit more but it's not really necessary . This is what partial neck sizing looks like and I do it on these two cartridges with a Lee collet die with a washer over the case on the shell holder . I have since reduced the thickness of the washer and the second shoulder is a bit lower now than in this photo some years back , which works better . More projectile security and less chamber resistance not that it was a problem .
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Re: Hornady outside neck turner

Post by Tiger650 » 06 Jul 2021, 10:13 am

Thx again John, I have been working up on old brass.
I have a Lee collet die and interesting to see a positive comment from a plainly knowledgeable source, I have those dies in 223 and 308.
One donut issue I reckon I have seen but not before recognised is tight chambering with some cases even after FLR, I now suspect that seating bullets in well annealed cases may have been pushing the donut outward. I have an AMP annealer and use it.
Notable that a neck turned test case generated a different code in the AMP.
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Re: Hornady outside neck turner

Post by JohnV » 06 Jul 2021, 12:00 pm

Your right , seating a bullet into a donut can cause a bit of swelling . Sometimes it's enough to hinder chambering.
The thinner neck would require less annealing time I would suspect so the AMP is compensating for that . It would not be that much different for a skim neck turn compared to unturned .
For a bolt action chasing every bit of accuracy I would like to see you abandon any FLR die and use a Redding Body die and the Lee Collet die . Much better process , easier to control sizing , a stuck case is child's play to remove from a body die which almost never happens anyway .
Allows partial neck sizing and maintains the second shoulder which usually improves accuracy and extends case life , also reduces annealing frequency . Every time you use a standard FLR die you screw up all the nice fire formed case fit and work the hell out of the brass . That made no sense to me back in 1968 when I invented the body die , well for me anyway but no one else was using a 7/8 x 14 threaded one in 1968 I can assure you and Redding never made one until about 1980 and then on secret special order for about 15 years because they new it was not their idea .
If you have any trouble with a Lee collet die , and it can be confusing , I should be able to help you as I have been using them ever since they came out .
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Re: Hornady outside neck turner

Post by Tiger650 » 06 Jul 2021, 8:31 pm

Thx again John, some mysteries solved.
Been looking for Redding body die in .223 and they appear to be thin on the ground, located a dealer in the US who apparently has stock.
Excuse my ignorance but I see some suppliers refer to the die as "small base" ?
I would not like to ship the wrong thing all that way.
Regards Richard
PS. I answered the small base die question via Google and presume that is not what is required for a bolt action rifle, still looking !
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Re: Hornady outside neck turner

Post by JohnV » 06 Jul 2021, 10:13 pm

Small base refers to a tighter diameter in the base of the die for guns with a known tight chamber issue .
Unless you have had trouble sizing cases to fit a certain gun then don't get a small base die .
Buy a standard body die first and if that works fine then no need for anything else .
Redding standard body die 223 Rem. is code 75111 on Redding's site .
Supplies seem to be hard to get now .
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Re: Hornady outside neck turner

Post by Tiger650 » 10 Jul 2021, 10:05 pm

Have began prep of a batch of 100 new Lapua .223 cases, in mind is outside neck turning with slight shoulder contact cut as described by the most helpful and knowledgeable JohnV.
5.56x45 is apparently a thing which Lapua does not do.
I full length re-sized the cases with an RCBS die then set up a Lyman case trimmer with the view of verifying / obtaining consistent case length to facilitate the light doughnut defeating shoulder / neck cut.
Best case length I could achieve is 44.33 mm, most cases showed full periphery cutter engagement but maybe 15% of cases would show 30 deg or so of unengaged brass.
More tomorrow.
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Re: Hornady outside neck turner

Post by JohnV » 11 Jul 2021, 5:35 pm

When the cutter gets to just scraping the shoulder the mark will be inconsistent around the shoulder but that is normal and no problem as the scrape is just an indicator that you have done all the neck right up to the neck / shoulder junction . It's not a cut , it's just a light scrape on start of the shoulder .
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Re: Hornady outside neck turner

Post by Tiger650 » 18 Jul 2021, 1:18 pm

I got the tool working to my satisfaction but had frustration setting mandrel depth.
Hornady instructions show simply inserting the mandrel and locking this in place with the stationary spindle, damned if Mine would not rotate the mandrel outward during that process and bugger up my mandrel depth setting.
Very difficult to prevent that, or detect it happening by holding the little .224" mandrel tip.
Tried locking the mandrel by inserting an old case and locking case neck down onto to the mandrel with the tool tip, not satisfactory.
I bit the bullet [no pun intended] and drilled the mandrel housing block and tapped M5 for a set screw, call me a butcher but it works for me.
Requires very little tension on the M5 screw to hold adjustment so does not damage the mandrel thread.
Small difficulty caused by drill bit burring of the internal [female] thread in the mandrel block but managed to clear that by working one of the unused [calibre I do not use] mandrels back and forth, appears to have done no damage to that mandrel or the mandrel block bore.
If I had access to a lathe I would bore into the rear surface of the mandrels and maybe drive a small torx bit into the hole, that would make mandrel positioning much easier.
Repeatability when changing mandrels is now easy, previously it was near impossible to avoid a mandrel being slightly backed out of the block when removing the [fixed] non rotating spindle and with the mandrel block in place on the machine impossible to measure mandrel position [protrusion ?] with a vernier.
The above is easily measured with the mandrel locked by the set screw, my .223 case trim length is set at 44.33mm, consistency there is obviously important.
Shallow "donut" cut at end of case travel requires attention, with inside and outside chamfer it is easy to push too hard and partially press the case neck mouth back which gives a deeper donut cut.
Best to watch carefully and do by eye rather than feel as feel is inconsistent due to varying amounts of brass being removed case to case.
Hopefully the above is not too convoluted, maybe looking at Hornady tool setup vid on Youtube would help.
The set screw thing could possibly be avoided by modifying mandrels with torx bits and a touch of Loctite in the mandrel block bore, ever notice that you sometimes think of a better solution after creating the Mk 1 version ?
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Re: Hornady outside neck turner

Post by JohnV » 18 Jul 2021, 4:44 pm

I have no experience with the Hornady tool . I would definitely do the shoulder scrape by eye that is all that's required just see that it hits the shoulder . I much prefer the Sinclair neck turners and do it by hand . Make sure the mandrel fit is not too tight as it could be jamming up as it gets hotter or the lube is no good .
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Re: Hornady outside neck turner

Post by Tiger650 » 18 Jul 2021, 8:00 pm

Cheers John, I would not buy the Hornady tool again, should have spent a little more money.
When I get into processing I can feel a little heat in finished case necks, worry that the tool bit may warm and expand so cutting deeper.
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Re: Hornady outside neck turner

Post by JohnV » 19 Jul 2021, 7:33 pm

Your only skim turning so a bit of heat expansion will not be much of a worry as far as cut depth goes but it can tighten the neck fit on the mandrel .
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Re: Hornady outside neck turner

Post by Tiger650 » 19 Jul 2021, 10:38 pm

Thx again John, I had noticed the tight on mandrel thing but not realised why.
Being an idle retired bloke I spent time on the arrangement.
Mounted the the Hornady tool to a a longish flat block of timber and made a timber cradle for a good quality 30 + year old cordless drill which is now powered from a car battery.
Wax between the drill cradle and base allows the drill to be moved forward and aft whilst a keen eye is kept on the workpiece, looks like something a Siberian tractor mechanic would make but works a treat.
Way too much effort to make a silk purse from a sow's ear for most folk.
No Lapua cases were harmed during development, I have lots of old cases but used maybe 15 of them in the process.
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Re: Hornady outside neck turner

Post by JohnV » 26 Jul 2021, 9:52 pm

Sounds interesting . Just remember to not push too fast and let it also cut on the way out .
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Re: Hornady outside neck turner

Post by Tiger650 » 26 Jul 2021, 10:21 pm

Too true, not tempted to use "high" speed on the cordless drill.
Feeding the case other than gradually even at low speed beware of a spiral cut.
Good input John and I titled this thread to allow anyone on the 'net to become aware of the process, certainly enlightening for me.
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Re: Hornady outside neck turner

Post by JohnV » 27 Jul 2021, 7:22 pm

I will add this file in I wrote a long time back on the subject , it may give some additional help .

Neck Turning & Partial Neck Sizing for Factory Chamber

I have read many times the statement that neck turning is a waste of time for standard factory chambers.
Well it depends on how you do it .

There is no denying that turning a case neck for a factory chamber will increase the clearance between the case neck and the wall of the chamber, but you can retrieve this clearance for a section of the neck to a tighter fit than before neck turning .
With partial neck sizing and body die sizing .
The idea is that you leave a portion of the neck , about one third of the neck length , unsized at all times.
To achieve this a bushing type neck sizing die or a Lee Collet neck sizing die is used to size the neck only .

To shorten the length of sizing in a Lee collet die place a machined washer or standard washer of correct thickness over the case and between the collet skirt and the shell holder .
This section of neck never gets sized that is why it must be kept reasonably short .
If it is too long it can make chambering difficult and there will not be enough sized section to hold the projectile concentric and secure especially in short neck designs like 243 W .
A body die is used to size the remainder of the case when necessary and it doesn’t touch any of the neck .

This way you gain some of the benefits of neck turning , without the disadvantage of excessive neck clearance in the chamber.
This is a technique for a bolt action rifle that has already shown to be accurate and you want to improve it .
It will work with any bottle neck case design but is more suitable for smaller calibre cartridges that don’t develop high recoil energy.
Perfect for a varmint rifle that you load one round at a time .
It works extra well with long neck cases .
Also it needs to be a cartridge that you can buy a body die for.
Redding catalogue lists the cartridges for which a body die is available
It is definitely a waste of time employing this idea in a rifle that doesn’t shoot well enough to see any small improvement in the groups.
Other methods such as pillar bedding , hand load development , quality projectiles etc, would be more likely to improve the bad shooting rifle .
So work on everything else and when you run out of things to improve , it may be the icing on the cake .
There is no one system of anything that suits every rifle , the secret to performance is experimentation.
Some rifles break all the rules such as shooting better with Full length sized cases than Fire formed cases.
Things like this can usually be traced back to some inaccuracy in the original manufacture e.g. crooked chambering job.
It's your job to figure out what works and what don't.
This article is designed to help you think about ideas you may not have come across before.
I have been using this system in some of my rifles for many years and find it improves accuracy .
Written by John Valentine. 25 / 10 / 07. Copyright.
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