.222Rem loading down to .22mag

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Re: .222Rem loading down to .22mag

Post by bladeracer » 10 Aug 2021, 9:13 pm

MtnMan wrote:correction- the bullets used are the speer 40gr spire point #1017, not #1810.

at reduced velocity this bullet isn't expanding at all! I even happened to find one in the dirt bank behind my targets and it was completely intact with no expansion whatsoever.
I tried 5 rounds this afternoon with 20gr of AR2206H. accuracy was better and the point of impact is the same as my 50gr bullet full power loads. little louder but tolerable. I'll see what the terminal performance is like now.


If you want expansion you need a very light jacket, and a terminal velocity above about 1600fps.
Any bullet offered in a factory WMR load should perform the same at WMR velocities.
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Re: .222Rem loading down to .22mag

Post by Oldbloke » 10 Aug 2021, 9:59 pm

MtnMan wrote:

I tried 5 rounds this afternoon with 20gr of AR2206H. accuracy was better and the point of impact is the same as my 50gr bullet full power loads. little louder but tolerable. I'll see what the terminal performance is like now.


They will be doing at least 2700fps I'd think

If they are not mushrooming at all try cutting the lead tip off
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Re: .222Rem loading down to .22mag

Post by bladeracer » 10 Aug 2021, 10:28 pm

At 2700fps even an FMJ will deform.


Oldbloke wrote:
MtnMan wrote:

I tried 5 rounds this afternoon with 20gr of AR2206H. accuracy was better and the point of impact is the same as my 50gr bullet full power loads. little louder but tolerable. I'll see what the terminal performance is like now.


They will be doing at least 2700fps I'd think

If they are not mushrooming at all try cutting the lead tip off
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Re: .222Rem loading down to .22mag

Post by MtnMan » 11 Aug 2021, 5:47 am

well the .22mag experiment won't work with these bullets. They are just too stout. They are only $29/100pk which is the main reason for using them. I could try a HP but then cost blows out to beyond what .22mag ammo costs.
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Re: .222Rem loading down to .22mag

Post by MtnMan » 11 Aug 2021, 5:51 am

bladeracer wrote:
MtnMan wrote:correction- the bullets used are the speer 40gr spire point #1017, not #1810.

at reduced velocity this bullet isn't expanding at all! I even happened to find one in the dirt bank behind my targets and it was completely intact with no expansion whatsoever.
I tried 5 rounds this afternoon with 20gr of AR2206H. accuracy was better and the point of impact is the same as my 50gr bullet full power loads. little louder but tolerable. I'll see what the terminal performance is like now.


If you want expansion you need a very light jacket, and a terminal velocity above about 1600fps.
Any bullet offered in a factory WMR load should perform the same at WMR velocities.


I've never seen such a bullet offered for sale loose.
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Re: .222Rem loading down to .22mag

Post by bigpete » 11 Aug 2021, 6:28 am

MtnMan wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
MtnMan wrote:correction- the bullets used are the speer 40gr spire point #1017, not #1810.

at reduced velocity this bullet isn't expanding at all! I even happened to find one in the dirt bank behind my targets and it was completely intact with no expansion whatsoever.
I tried 5 rounds this afternoon with 20gr of AR2206H. accuracy was better and the point of impact is the same as my 50gr bullet full power loads. little louder but tolerable. I'll see what the terminal performance is like now.


If you want expansion you need a very light jacket, and a terminal velocity above about 1600fps.
Any bullet offered in a factory WMR load should perform the same at WMR velocities.


I've never seen such a bullet offered for sale loose.


Look on used guns.
Also,those speer flat points I use are $25/100.....
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Re: .222Rem loading down to .22mag

Post by MtnMan » 11 Aug 2021, 6:49 am

how do you find the terminal performance of them at low velocity?
I could try a hollow point but then the cost blows out because I can't seem to find some anywhere near as cheap.
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Re: .222Rem loading down to .22mag

Post by bigpete » 11 Aug 2021, 9:23 am

Devastating
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Re: .222Rem loading down to .22mag

Post by bladeracer » 11 Aug 2021, 9:32 am

MtnMan wrote:
bladeracer wrote:If you want expansion you need a very light jacket, and a terminal velocity above about 1600fps.
Any bullet offered in a factory WMR load should perform the same at WMR velocities.


I've never seen such a bullet offered for sale loose.


WMR generally uses standard bullets, VMax, TNT, etc. The cast and plated bullets are WMR-specific, and I haven't come across those for reloading.

I just had a very quick look as I'm not at my computer, but these are some that should work fine at WMR velocities.
Barnes 36gn Varmint Grenade
Hornady 35gn and 40gn VMax, 45gn Hornet JSP
Nosler 35gn Varmageddon, 40gn BT
Sierra 40gn and 45gn Varminter JSP, 40gn Varminter HP, 40gn Blitzking
Speer 33gn Hornet JHP, 46gn .218 Bee JFN, 40gn SP, 45gn Spitzer SP, 30gn TNT HP, 43gn TNT Green JHP
I'll have to check the lengths of the poly-tipped bullets as they might be too long to stabilise in a 16"-twist WMR barrel.
WMR ammo with jacketed bullets seems to be around the 60c to 80c apiece mark?
And they push the 30gn bullets at around 2200fps, 40gn at 1900fps, 50gn at 1500fps.
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Re: .222Rem loading down to .22mag

Post by Oldbloke » 11 Aug 2021, 9:58 am

Try this.

Resized_20210704_131908.jpeg
Resized_20210704_131908.jpeg (219.3 KiB) Viewed 4467 times


TBH. 15.8 gr AR2206h,,,I would think that would be doing around 2200fps (hust a guess) surprised their is no deformation at all.
I've shot 2 foxes with my load (abt 2100fps) and both just fell over. Bullets were 55gr, straight out of the box.
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Re: .222Rem loading down to .22mag

Post by bladeracer » 11 Aug 2021, 4:06 pm

Oldbloke wrote:Try this.

Resized_20210704_131908.jpeg


TBH. 15.8 gr AR2206h,,,I would think that would be doing around 2200fps (hust a guess) surprised their is no deformation at all.
I've shot 2 foxes with my load (abt 2100fps) and both just fell over. Bullets were 55gr, straight out of the box.


You grind the points off?
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Re: .222Rem loading down to .22mag

Post by Oldbloke » 11 Aug 2021, 4:26 pm

No mate. Tried a file first time. Bloody stanly knife was best by far. Lol Took about 0.7 gr off.

Grinder or file will just clog up with lead.

I did it for easy identification of my squib loads. But figure they will open up a bit quicker now, which is good as only doing abt 2100fps.
Last edited by Oldbloke on 11 Aug 2021, 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: .222Rem loading down to .22mag

Post by bladeracer » 11 Aug 2021, 4:43 pm

I added bullet lengths where I can.


bladeracer wrote:Barnes 36gn Varmint Grenade (.694")
Berger 40gn Match Varmint (.609" - 15"-twist specified)
Hornady 35gn (.517") and 40gn VMax (.686"), 45gn Hornet JSP (.590"), 35gn NTX (.725")
Hornady do offer ammo with a subsonic 45gn FTX, but I have no idea what length the bullet is.
Nosler 35gn Varmageddon (.520"), 40gn BT (.700")
Sierra 40gn (.490") and 45gn Varminter JSP (.537"), 40gn Varminter HP (.564"), 40gn Blitzking (.677")
Speer 33gn Hornet JHP (.438"), 46gn .218 Bee JFN (.483"), 40gn SP (.495"), 45gn Spitzer SP (.570"), 30gn TNT HP, 43gn TNT Green JHP


Do you know the twist rate you're working with?
If it's a 14"-twist you should be fine with bullets up to around .765" length. If it's a 12"-twist you should be good to around .820" bullet length.

The 35gn and 40gn VMax would be my first choice, they're $40/100 at Cleaver.
Nosler 40gn BT are $390/1000, 35gn Varmageddon are $74/250.
Speer 33gn Hornet JHP are $28/100, 30gn TNT Green are $59/100, 46gn FN are $27/100.
They also have bulk 1000rd packs of the 50gn TNT and 52gn Varmint HP at $225.
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Re: .222Rem loading down to .22mag

Post by bladeracer » 11 Aug 2021, 4:44 pm

Oldbloke wrote:No mate. Tried a file first time. Bloody stanly knife was best by far. Lol Took about 0.7 gr off.

Grinder or file will just clog up with lead.

I did it for easy identification of my squib loads. But figure they will open up a bit quicker now, which is good as only doing abt 2100fps.


Nice :-)
I used to file the points off 6.5x55mm FMJ bullets when I was a kid.
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Re: .222Rem loading down to .22mag

Post by MtnMan » 11 Aug 2021, 7:05 pm

IMG_8219.JPG
IMG_8219.JPG (27.39 KiB) Viewed 4447 times

Here's the bullet that I just happened to find sitting on the grass on the embankment behind my target. This is from a 15.8gr charge of AR2206H. Could be from 50, 70 or 100m. The jacket is completely intact and there is a dent in the base. Bullet is the Speer 40gr Spire point #1017.
That is going to act as a FMJ on small game!!!

I've loaded a few with 20gr charges listed as starting loads but I'm yet to shoot any animals with it. accuracy is good with 20gr.
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Re: .222Rem loading down to .22mag

Post by bladeracer » 11 Aug 2021, 7:16 pm

MtnMan wrote:
IMG_8219.JPG

Here's the bullet that I just happened to find sitting on the grass on the embankment behind my target. This is from a 15.8gr charge of AR2206H. Could be from 50, 70 or 100m. The jacket is completely intact and there is a dent in the base. Bullet is the Speer 40gr Spire point #1017.
That is going to act as a FMJ on small game!!!

I've loaded a few with 20gr charges listed as starting loads but I'm yet to shoot any animals with it. accuracy is good with 20gr.



Doesn't seem like it had much velocity. How low is it shooting compared to your .222Rem 40gn loads?
If you know the trajectory for 50m, 75m and 100m we can calculate the velocity fairly accurately if you don't have a chronograph.

FMJ bullets still kill just fine if you hit the right spot. If accuracy is good just place the bullet in the brain or heart.

I no longer have a .222Rem so I can't replicate the load to chrono it.
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Re: .222Rem loading down to .22mag

Post by MtnMan » 11 Aug 2021, 7:29 pm

Ok, my 50gr Sierra spitzer #1330 load of 22.8gr of AR2206H shoots 50mm high at 100m. The Speer 40gr #1017 with 15.8grs of AR2206H shoots 100mm low at 100m.
With a 20gr charge the 40gr Speer hits 50mm high same as the 50gr bullet load at 100m, so that shows a significant increase in velocity.
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Re: .222Rem loading down to .22mag

Post by bladeracer » 11 Aug 2021, 7:32 pm

I recovered a virtually undeformed Remington Cyclone .22LR bullet last week.
It was laying on the ground at my 182m targets.
20210811_191742b.jpg
20210811_191742b.jpg (134.4 KiB) Viewed 4443 times

It should've hit the grass at about 850fps, but a fair percentage of that old ammo was significantly under-powered.
Obviously it still had enough to make it to the targets so it probably only dropped about 600mm lower than the others.
I guess the wet grass was sufficient to steal most of its energy before it hit the mud underneath.
Despite being a high-velocity hollow-point, I wouldn't expect to see any deformation at 180m on small game either.
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Re: .222Rem loading down to .22mag

Post by MtnMan » 11 Aug 2021, 7:35 pm

So I guess if anything having the same POI will be handy. Just a little louder but it's tolerable. The price of the Speer 40gr at $29/100pk is what I'm after. something to at least match the price of the .22mag ammo I used to have to buy.
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Re: .222Rem loading down to .22mag

Post by MtnMan » 11 Aug 2021, 7:37 pm

Funny you mention that. Just this afternoon I recovered some .22lr HV HP's from 100m. very little deformation at all.
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Re: .222Rem loading down to .22mag

Post by MtnMan » 11 Aug 2021, 7:39 pm

I have a chrono but it hasn't been reading anything. I have to play with lighting I think.
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Re: .222Rem loading down to .22mag

Post by bladeracer » 11 Aug 2021, 7:40 pm

MtnMan wrote:Ok, my 50gr Sierra spitzer #1330 load of 22.8gr of AR2206H shoots 50mm high at 100m. The Speer 40gr #1017 with 15.8grs of AR2206H shoots 100mm low at 100m.
With a 20gr charge the 40gr Speer hits 50mm high same as the 50gr bullet load at 100m, so that shows a significant increase in velocity.


20gn of AR2206H is a starting load with 40gn jacketed bullets, making around 2550fps.
15.8gn would be somewhere around the 2000fps mark is my guess (the large air space would rob some energy I think).
By 100m it would be down to around 1400fps or so, which might explain the lack of deformation. By 50m it's down to around 1650fps.
I don't know what the design minimum is for the bullet though, and the website doesn't say - my guess is in the 1500fps area.
https://www.speer.com/bullets/rifle_bullets/varmint_soft_point_bullet/19-1017.html
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Re: .222Rem loading down to .22mag

Post by bladeracer » 11 Aug 2021, 7:48 pm

MtnMan wrote:So I guess if anything having the same POI will be handy. Just a little louder but it's tolerable. The price of the Speer 40gr at $29/100pk is what I'm after. something to at least match the price of the .22mag ammo I used to have to buy.


We can calculate velocity from the trajectory, but only if we have at least two data points, preferably more.
Point-of-impact deflection from point-of-aim at 50m and 100m would be good.

As the 15.8gn load is hitting 100mm below point of aim at 100m, and _assuming_ it is zeroed at 50m, my guess is the muzzle velocity is only around 1600fps. If it were doing 2000fps you'd expect around 65mm drop at 100m from a 50m zero.
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Re: .222Rem loading down to .22mag

Post by MtnMan » 11 Aug 2021, 7:52 pm

yeah I notice they say "when you'd prefer controlled expansion over explosive terminal effects..." and "controlled expansion bullet that minimizes pelt damage"

Maybe just built a little too stout for .22mag velocities.

Much like the difference between the Sierra 50gr Spitzer #1330 I use and the #1340 blitz. the Blitz having a lighter jacket. I read once that the #1330 is designed to handle .220 swift type velocity and that it might be a bit "hard" at .222 velocities. Suits me though having a little more controlled expansion for medium game that can be encountered. never been disappointed with their performance and they are frangible enough even on rabbits.
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Re: .222Rem loading down to .22mag

Post by MtnMan » 11 Aug 2021, 7:58 pm

Ok...holding center as it is now sighted in at 50mm high with my 50gr bullet load the 15.8gr charge with the 40gr bullet shoots about 50mm low at 50m and 100mm low at 100m.

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Re: .222Rem loading down to .22mag

Post by Oldbloke » 11 Aug 2021, 8:33 pm

Maybe section a bullet
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Re: .222Rem loading down to .22mag

Post by MtnMan » 11 Aug 2021, 9:24 pm

well, just shot 2 foxes with the 40gr bullets and 20gr charge. Both were chest shots. 1st one dropped on the spot and had an exit hole about 10mm diameter. about 80m shot.
second one dropped but disappeared, nowhere to be found. distance was a tad longer.

these things won't expand! Bit disappointing really. never seen a regular soft point act so much like a FMJ.
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Re: .222Rem loading down to .22mag

Post by boingk » 11 Aug 2021, 10:58 pm

Go 55gn Super Roo if they'll work with your twist rate. They do well in my little Ruger 223, if you shoot a used coke can filled with water you find three pieces afterward - a flat rectangle of metal that used to be the sides, and then the buckled and deformed top and bottom. I'm sitting at 24.5gn 2206H and 2900fps from the 18" barrel.
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Re: .222Rem loading down to .22mag

Post by Oldbloke » 12 Aug 2021, 12:57 am

Perhaps a more realistic test. Wet news papers were popular years ago.
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Re: .222Rem loading down to .22mag

Post by MtnMan » 12 Aug 2021, 6:34 am

will try cutting the lead tip off and maybe even hollowing it a bit.
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