Making 410 out of 303 brass

[bladeracer]

would forming them hydraulically with water work

How would you do this?
You need the case to be in the chamber of a .410 barrel or a die, but then you could apply hydraulic pressure to it in some way.
Frankly, just far, far easier to fire them.

[northdude]

I think I've read about it in a very old sporting shooter from memory it involved some type of die and a good fitting rod that fitted in the case didn't really fully read article as it was of little interest at the time its called hydro forming

[Oldbloke]

Never anneal the lower part of the case.
Try chamber your hulls before you load them to confirm they chamber okay, otherwise you'll want to resize the bases.

Yup. For anyone following along and thinking 'why?' the case head and lower portion of the case shouldn't be annealed as you will be likely to have extraction problems or even case head / web integrity failure... otherwise known as a facefull of hot gas or even a 'bang' at the wrong end of the gun.

No expert here. But just re thinking this. Most centerfires are usually 40,000 to 55,000psi.
But 410 runs at 12,500psi.
Soooo, logic says perhaps it's OK to anneal further down the case than usual. Just a thought bubble. More research me thinks.

[bladeracer]

I think I've read about it in a very old sporting shooter from memory it involved some type of die and a good fitting rod that fitted in the case didn't really fully read article as it was of little interest at the time its called hydro forming

I can't see that working as the point of the exercise is to open the case mouth out to a much larger diameter, thus a tight-fitting rod is impossible. You could do it by attaching hydraulic pressure to a barrel, but I would expect it to collapse the case against the bolt rather than expand it.

You can use this hydraulic method to deprime brass, particularly Berdan brass.

[bladeracer]

Never anneal the lower part of the case.
Try chamber your hulls before you load them to confirm they chamber okay, otherwise you'll want to resize the bases.

Yup. For anyone following along and thinking 'why?' the case head and lower portion of the case shouldn't be annealed as you will be likely to have extraction problems or even case head / web integrity failure... otherwise known as a facefull of hot gas or even a 'bang' at the wrong end of the gun.

No expert here. But just re thinking this. Most centerfires are usually 40,000 to 55,000psi.
But 410 runs at 12,500psi.
Soooo, logic says perhaps it's OK to anneal further down the case than usual. Just a thought bubble. More research me thinks.

Perhaps, but I can't see any reason you would want to. The .303 brass doesn't have to be expanded out to the full .410 size at the case head.
I don't have any plastic hulls, only Magtech brass .410 shells. .303 on top. The .303 measures .453" across the case head, the .410 measures .470", but I wouldn't expect the .410 hull to expand the head under the low pressures it operates at. The .45 Colt I use in a .410 chamber is expanded to .475" under fairly stout loads. If you don't need the column height, .45 Colt is another option for .410 brass but half the length. CCI makes .45 Colt 150gn shotshells. Frankly, I would just shoot .45 Colt in the .410 with bullets rather than shot

[No1Mk3]

Why would you consider annealing the base end of a rifle cartridge case to be problematic when you are actually converting it to a shotgun case? It is no longer a rifle case operating at rifle pressures, but a shotgun case, and remember the hulls you reload have either paper or plastic as the walls and very thin brass or plastic bases. 410 2 1/2" has a chamber pressure for 1/2 oz at appx 12500 psi compared to a 303 MAP of 49000 psi. Also recall there is an entire world of difference between annealing brass to a softer more pliable state than over-heating it to a permanently ruined state, Cheers.

[Oldbloke]

Why would you consider annealing the base end of a rifle cartridge case to be problematic when you are actually converting it to a shotgun case? It is no longer a rifle case operating at rifle pressures, but a shotgun case, and remember the hulls you reload have either paper or plastic as the walls and very thin brass or plastic bases. 410 2 1/2" has a chamber pressure for 1/2 oz at appx 12500 psi compared to a 303 MAP of 49000 psi. Also recall there is an entire world of difference between annealing brass to a softer more pliable state than over-heating it to a permanently ruined state, Cheers.

No 1, I think your logic is good.

[LawrenceA]

Thanks for the advice guys.

Straight shooter, I understand that with annealed cases and non-metallic projectiles the process should be fairly safe. I'm using waxed cotton wadding on top of 10gn (2.1cc dipper) of Trailboss with a pistol primer. As I understand it this will generate very low pressures but should be enough to form the cases - it may well need two firings from what I've heard.

I saw the Magma shot maker! Very cool piece of kit. I'm thinking more along the lines of a tin with a small hole in it over a bucket of water... very basic but the same process has been used for hundred of years in shot towers and small commercial casters.

Hopefully I can get to the range Tuesday after work.

- boingk

Tried the tine with a hole under it.
Couldn't get it to work. Tried different heights and size hole but did no good.
Ended up with fried eggs or needles and the tin cooled off too quick.
Good luck

[northdude]

another option is to google and have a look at quality everlasting 410 shells.

[bladeracer]

another option is to google and have a look at quality everlasting 410 shells.

Are they brass shells?
Are they available in Australia?

[disco stu]

Thanks for the advice guys.

Straight shooter, I understand that with annealed cases and non-metallic projectiles the process should be fairly safe. I'm using waxed cotton wadding on top of 10gn (2.1cc dipper) of Trailboss with a pistol primer. As I understand it this will generate very low pressures but should be enough to form the cases - it may well need two firings from what I've heard.

I saw the Magma shot maker! Very cool piece of kit. I'm thinking more along the lines of a tin with a small hole in it over a bucket of water... very basic but the same process has been used for hundred of years in shot towers and small commercial casters.

Hopefully I can get to the range Tuesday after work.

- boingk

Tried the tine with a hole under it.
Couldn't get it to work. Tried different heights and size hole but did no good.
Ended up with fried eggs or needles and the tin cooled off too quick.
Good luck

So it just spattered on the water causing the fried eggs? The shot machines seem to use oil, not sure if that makes a difference. Would going higher help so it's solid before hitting the water? Not sure how high you would need-know any 4 story unit blocks

[bigpete]

Rebel gunworks sells brass ones

[northdude]

another option is to google and have a look at quality everlasting 410 shells.

Are they brass shells?
Are they available in Australia?

take a look and you tell me I don't live in australia but I presume you'd be able to I see a 303 case there. Goes into making the shot as well..

[disco stu]

Just googled quality everlasting 410 and this was the first hit. Looks like some info for both shells and making shot. All you need is a lathe-much cheaper than brass right?

https://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co.nz/ ... lls-63170/

[bladeracer]

another option is to google and have a look at quality everlasting 410 shells.

Are they brass shells?
Are they available in Australia?

take a look and you tell me I don't live in australia but I presume you'd be able to I see a 303 case there. Goes into making the shot as well..

I did, but all I found was the same page as Stu.
I didn't find anything about these "everlasting" hulls.
It's interesting that he's using 9.3x74R brass, but that's more expensive than buying the Magtech .410 stuff, without having to form it.

[Oldbloke]

another option is to google and have a look at quality everlasting 410 shells.

Are they brass shells?
Are they available in Australia?

take a look and you tell me I don't live in australia but I presume you'd be able to I see a 303 case there. Goes into making the shot as well..

I did, but all I found was the same page as Stu.
I didn't find anything about these "everlasting" hulls.
It's interesting that he's using 9.3x74R brass, but that's more expensive than buying the Magtech .410 stuff, without having to form it.

Perhaps, but I'm impressed with his simple DIY shot maker. I had a go years ago and didn't work too well. There might have another covid project there. LOL

[bigpete]

Most shot makers have a ramp covered with chalk that the drip rolls down before dropping into antifreeze or detergent of some form.

[bladeracer]

Perhaps, but I'm impressed with his simple DIY shot maker. I had a go years ago and didn't work too well. There might have another covid project there. LOL

Yes, that was far more interesting than the case forming
It would be neat to be able to produce my own shot.

[northdude]

oh well thought it might help the op in some way if that's what he was asking about. there's some clever buggers out there. I'm guessing you could do the same process with 303 instead of 9.3??

[bladeracer]

oh well thought it might help the op in some way if that's what he was asking about. there's some clever buggers out there. I'm guessing you could do the same process with 303 instead of 9.3??

I'm sure it has very useful information for this thread. I would think that you could expand .303 up to .410 using various mandrel, but it seems a convoluted method to me, and expensive if you don't have a lathe.

[Oldbloke]

Most shot makers have a ramp covered with chalk that the drip rolls down before dropping into antifreeze or detergent of some form.

Yes, that's what I've seen.

[northdude]

oh well thought it might help the op in some way if that's what he was asking about. there's some clever buggers out there. I'm guessing you could do the same process with 303 instead of 9.3??

I'm sure it has very useful information for this thread. I would think that you could expand .303 up to .410 using various mandrel, but it seems a convoluted method to me, and expensive if you don't have a lathe.

yea i know personally for me I wouldn't bother at all but if someone has the skills and wants to do it why not. Hes a very clever guy and I've seen some of the other things he does.

[Oldbloke]

I thought it was interesting that he rolled the brass. My understanding is that most just use wax or glue to hold the over wad in place. That's what I would to.

[bladeracer]

I thought it was interesting that he rolled the brass. My understanding is that most just use wax or glue to hold the over wad in place. That's what I would to.

I would use a crimp die, just quicker and less messy. The crimping of plastic hulls is really the only reason I bought brass 12ga. and .410 shells.