Can a primer detonate with slowly applied pressure?

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Can a primer detonate with slowly applied pressure?

Post by inervate » 07 Apr 2014, 10:38 am

Dunno if I'm on the wrong track here, so someone can straighten me out...

So you can have misfires when the firing pin doesn't hit the primer 'normally'... Due to a bit of crap in the firing pin hole stopping it from coming forward smoothly or whatever.

You can get a small dent in the primer, but not enough to ignite it.

In this case, is the misfire due to the pin not hitting deep enough? Or fast enough?

I dunno if I'm getting my apples and oranges mixed up here, I'm sort of thinking along similar lines to smokeless rifle powder only 'exploding' under pressure. Does a firing pin work in a similar setting?

Could you potentially ignite a primer by gently closing the bolt on it with the trigger pulled so the pin presses into the back of it?

Or could you ignite one in a hard primer tool with wider spread pressure, but still slower hand movements?
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Re: Can a primer detonate with slowly applied pressure?

Post by Apollo » 07 Apr 2014, 1:13 pm

In theory a primer needs percussion to force the anvil onto the primer substrate in order to detonate it. I have never seen a figure quoted that states how much or how fast the force needs to be.

Lee Loading warn against using Federal Primers in their Hand Loader, exactly why they don't really stipulate.

You can ignite a primer with a static electricity charge jumping across the substrate.

Some believe you can kill a primer by soaking it in water, oil or whatever but they fail to realise that modern day primers have a seal over the substrate to prevent contamination. Primers are not stored in sealed containers are they. I have soaked many primers in any number of liquids over varying lengths of time to no avail, all fired that I tested.

I have removed a live primer from a cartridge case, outside using a portable reloading press and plenty of safety protection going very slowly. I was not very happy about the idea but that was my only choice as I could not chamber the round to fire the primer.

I treat primers with respect and caution. They are an explosive unlike smokeless gunpowder.

Again, in theory you should be able to slowly apply pressure to a primer until it is completely flat without it detonating..... BUT .... I wouldn't try it just for an experiment as anything may be possible.
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Re: Can a primer detonate with slowly applied pressure?

Post by Lorgar » 07 Apr 2014, 6:24 pm

Testing the memory here a bit but...

I believe the explosive in modern rifle primers is 'Lead Styphnate' and percussion caps for black powder rifles are typically 'Mercury Fulminate'.

Neither of these are akin to smokeless rifle powder... Both will detonate with their full potential energy without the compression which is required by modern powder to achieve this.

That's the lab answer anyway... I won't speculate as to how they can or cannot be detonated as I've never tried any method outside of using a firearm.
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Re: Can a primer detonate with slowly applied pressure?

Post by Davies » 08 Apr 2014, 9:01 am

Maybe you can find them on Google, but there are pics of guys who've had primers go into their hand-tool or press sidewards and get crushed into the primer pocket.

About squashes them in half and they didn't go off.

As a general comment it's fair to say they are pretty safe, stable.

Never say never though... They are an explosive after all, and you'd hate to have one go off while doing something foolish.
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Re: Can a primer detonate with slowly applied pressure?

Post by jeener » 08 Apr 2014, 9:26 am

Lorgar wrote:I believe the explosive in modern rifle primers is 'Lead Styphnate' and percussion caps for black powder rifles are typically 'Mercury Fulminate'.


Passing on a few "internet facts" here... We all know how accurate those can be :D

But I've read elsewhere too that the primer explosives have a lot more 'bang' than smokeless powder and can do a bit more damage than you might expect.
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Re: Can a primer detonate with slowly applied pressure?

Post by 5Tom » 08 Apr 2014, 5:44 pm

I use a universal de-priming tool to remove live primers. My experience doing so with my setup says to be careful and apply less than equal pressure pressing them out as you did pressing them in. When the primers are removed, they suffer no damage and can be reused.

I'm not sure what you mean by:

Could you potentially ignite a primer by gently closing the bolt on it with the trigger pulled so the pin presses into the back of it?


I'm going to assume your trying to de-cock your firing pin with a live round in the chamber? Not exactly an idea situation as any bump to the rifle, could shock your firing pin and possibly fire it... Not recommended.
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Re: Can a primer detonate with slowly applied pressure?

Post by inervate » 08 Apr 2014, 6:44 pm

5Tom wrote:I'm going to assume your trying to de-cock your firing pin with a live round in the chamber? Not exactly an idea situation as any bump to the rifle, could shock your firing pin and possibly fire it... Not recommended.


I'm not trying to do it, but that is what I meant.

I'm just asking as to the sensitivity of the primer, not doing it myself.
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Re: Can a primer detonate with slowly applied pressure?

Post by kritch » 08 Apr 2014, 6:45 pm

5Tom wrote:...and apply less than equal pressure pressing them out as you did pressing them in.


Huh? Less than equal pressure?
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Re: Can a primer detonate with slowly applied pressure?

Post by yoshie » 08 Apr 2014, 6:46 pm

If you get a hang fire, ie the firing pin has struck the primer but not ignited the power, you should wait minute or 2 with the gun pointed down range.

There is a chance the primer can smoulder and ignite the powder resulting a bullet leaving the barrel. I had a bad batch of 22s and after clearing a dud, it went off next to my shoe while I was clearing my pistol.

I've also heard of a shooter testing some loads at the bench and after a hang fire he took the cartridge out of his rifle and put it back in the ammo box. If went off next to his head and destroyed the box.
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Re: Can a primer detonate with slowly applied pressure?

Post by 5Tom » 09 Apr 2014, 5:12 pm

kritch wrote:Huh? Less than equal pressure?


Well, what I mean is to apply slow leverage.

Usually when pressing in a primer (as I use the Lee hand primer tool) I press them in with a bit of force to make sure they are seated all the way in.

When I remove live primers on my press, it takes less effort with less resistance to remove them compared to a fired primer where I'm more rough pushing it through.
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Re: Can a primer detonate with slowly applied pressure?

Post by kritch » 10 Apr 2014, 11:42 am

Ah, I'm with you now.
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Re: Can a primer detonate with slowly applied pressure?

Post by creet » 10 Apr 2014, 11:43 am

yoshie wrote:I had a bad batch of 22s and after clearing a dud, it went off next to my shoe while I was clearing my pistol.


How long did it take to go out of curiosity?
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Re: Can a primer detonate with slowly applied pressure?

Post by mahna » 10 Apr 2014, 11:44 am

yoshie wrote:I've also heard of a shooter testing some loads at the bench and after a hang fire he took the cartridge out of his rifle and put it back in the ammo box. If went off next to his head and destroyed the box.


I bet that gets the heart pumping :lol:
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Re: Can a primer detonate with slowly applied pressure?

Post by Weepy » 10 Apr 2014, 11:46 am

yoshie wrote:There is a chance the primer can smoulder and ignite the powder resulting a bullet leaving the barrel. I had a bad batch of 22s and after clearing a dud, it went off next to my shoe while I was clearing my pistol.


At least it was just a .22, not much bang to be hand.

Wouldn't want a CF magnum cartridge going off next to the foot though I think.
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Re: Can a primer detonate with slowly applied pressure?

Post by Utcherd » 10 Apr 2014, 11:47 am

Didn't someone on here have a progressive press that detonated a primer while loading?

I vaguely remember something about a bit of shrapnel getting stuck in the ceiling as a result?
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Re: Can a primer detonate with slowly applied pressure?

Post by Lorgar » 10 Apr 2014, 11:49 am

5Tom wrote:Usually when pressing in a primer (as I use the Lee hand primer tool) I press them in with a bit of force to make sure they are seated all the way in.


So do I, with the RCBS hand primer.

Close it until the handle is all the way shut. Most of the time primers are evenly seated but a few in every batch are at a slight angle and have a crescent pressed into the primer from the push rod hitting it unevenly.

Hasn't caused a problem so far...
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Re: Can a primer detonate with slowly applied pressure?

Post by SendIt » 10 Apr 2014, 11:55 am

inervate wrote:Or could you ignite one in a hard primer tool with wider spread pressure, but still slower hand movements?


There was a picture floating around recently of a guy with facial injuries that he supposedly sustained from a primer going off in a hand tool. I think it was pretty well explained away as being fake and the injuries were actually due to glass from all accounts. Dunno if that's what you're thinking about...

Never say never I suppose, but a little care and attention I doubt you would ever have a problem.
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Re: Can a primer detonate with slowly applied pressure?

Post by inervate » 16 Apr 2014, 9:07 am

Yeah I saw that ages ago.

Just asking for general safety, not wondering after a specific accident or anything.
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Re: Can a primer detonate with slowly applied pressure?

Post by Tonit » 16 Apr 2014, 4:05 pm

This is one of those questions better left untested.

How many cartridges get primed every day by reloaders around the world? Hundreds of thousands I guess?

Obviously it can be done safely and people are doing them by the truckload without problem.

But like Davies said... Never say never.

Do it sensibly, be safety conscious and you should never have a problem.

Get lazy or dismissive of potential dangers and, well...
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Re: Can a primer detonate with slowly applied pressure?

Post by Triang » 16 Apr 2014, 4:07 pm

SendIt wrote:There was a picture floating around recently of a guy with facial injuries that he supposedly sustained from a primer going off in a hand tool. I think it was pretty well explained away as being fake and the injuries were actually due to glass from all accounts.


Yeah I remember that photo from another forum.

Not a doctor here but it did look very glass like... Long deep cuts etc.

Not what I'd expect from a little primer spitting up a bit of shrapnel.
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Re: Can a primer detonate with slowly applied pressure?

Post by von_klitzing » 22 Apr 2014, 10:54 pm

Davies wrote:Maybe you can find them on Google, but there are pics of guys who've had primers go into their hand-tool or press sidewards and get crushed into the primer pocket.

About squashes them in half and they didn't go off.

As a general comment it's fair to say they are pretty safe, stable.

Never say never though... They are an explosive after all, and you'd hate to have one go off while doing something foolish.


Ha! I did this just last week while priming some crimped brass...

When inserting the primer past the crimp, there is a slight hang up, and it makes the primers jump in the hand tool. Anyway, loaded one in sideways and no bang (luckily!).

Here's the result:

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Re: Can a primer detonate with slowly applied pressure?

Post by Davies » 23 Apr 2014, 2:29 pm

There you go, perfect example.

Thanks VK
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Re: Can a primer detonate with slowly applied pressure?

Post by inervate » 23 Apr 2014, 2:30 pm

Yup, that's pretty squashed.

Good to see they're tough to accidentally set off.
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Re: Can a primer detonate with slowly applied pressure?

Post by Warrigul » 23 Apr 2014, 5:56 pm

inervate wrote:Yup, that's pretty squashed.

Good to see they're tough to accidentally set off.


It's a bit like getting pregnant, it can be hard to conceive when you really want to but there are so many girls out there that only ever did it once...
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Re: Can a primer detonate with slowly applied pressure?

Post by tucked » 24 Apr 2014, 9:43 am

Not talking down the safety concerns, but is there that much pop in a primer?

If it goes off in the primer tool, wouldn't it just flash out of the case? Surely it wouldn't have enough energy to banana peel the brass case?

I get Lorgar's point about it being a more serious (if that's the right word) explosive than smokeless rifle propellant, but there just isn't much of it?
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Re: Can a primer detonate with slowly applied pressure?

Post by Seconds » 24 Apr 2014, 10:01 am

tucked wrote:If it goes off in the primer tool, wouldn't it just flash out of the case? Surely it wouldn't have enough energy to banana peel the brass case?


There is a series of videos buy a guy who was testing different size/shape flash holes and primer pocket stuff.

Basically he secured the brass and filmed the flash in slow-motion from the side of it. Like you said, it does just flash out of the brass (it did in these videos anyway).

The tip of the flash/gas jet was about 1 foot long though judging by the video. Certainly enough to reach you're face/eyes while holding the primer tool.

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Re: Can a primer detonate with slowly applied pressure?

Post by Lyam » 24 Apr 2014, 10:04 am

tucked wrote:If it goes off in the primer tool, wouldn't it just flash out of the case? Surely it wouldn't have enough energy to banana peel the brass case?


This is just my personal, completely untested opinion but I don't think a primer could ever open a good condition case.

I know the videos Seconds is talking about though, and there is definitely enough 'pop' in the primer to send some burning gas/debris into your eyes.
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Re: Can a primer detonate with slowly applied pressure?

Post by tucked » 24 Apr 2014, 10:04 am

Hmm, right.

I'll try and find those videos, sounds interesting.
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Re: Can a primer detonate with slowly applied pressure?

Post by Apollo » 24 Apr 2014, 10:30 am

In a Hand Primer Tool I would not like to say how strong the back end of the primer would be supported even if it was all the way in the primer pocket. Yet alone if one went off that was sitting sideways. I certainly would not like to test the situation. They do have enough force / pressure to push a bullet partly down the bore.

Here is a link to some photo's of primers being tested to compare the flash.

http://www.6mmbr.com/primerpix.html
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Re: Can a primer detonate with slowly applied pressure?

Post by on_one_wheel » 24 Apr 2014, 12:33 pm

Lyam wrote:This is just my personal, completely untested opinion but I don't think a primer could ever open a good condition case.

I know the videos Seconds is talking about though, and there is definitely enough 'pop' in the primer to send some burning gas/debris into your eyes.


I have and still use a leeloader that in order to get the primers seated you need to put a drift into the shell case and hammer the case over the primer that is resting in a priming anvil, about 1 in 100 times the primer goes off with a bang about 15 mm from the side of your hand, the drift that is inserted into the case jumps about an inch and the escaping gasses leave a black mark on your little finger and side of your palm, the remains of the primer are flattened and still contained on top of the anvil...... safety glasses..... always, deadly explosive force that will blow your face off..... laughable.
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