.308 Winchester reduced loads using AR2205

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.308 Winchester reduced loads using AR2205

Post by wildcard6 » 13 Aug 2021, 10:47 am

For many years, before I got a .308, I used a .270 for shooting centrefire metallic silhouettes at my local gun club. We shot them at 50, 100, 150 and 200 meters, so most people used cast lead bullets, but that wasn't an option for the .270 without casting my own, which I had no interest in doing. I used four different loads for the different ranges; the first three used Trail Boss [12, 14, 17 grains respectively], but I found I couldn't knock down the Rams at 200m with T/B so I used 18-grains of AR2205 behind [jacketed] bullets in the 150 - 165 grain range and it worked well. There was a big BOOM when it fired, but muzzle velocity was only around 1800 fps and had the desired effect at 200m without causing any damage to the targets.
Now that I've got a .308 I'm using cast lead bullets myself, but I know someone who is getting in to the game but doesn't want to shoot lead bullets, because they're much fiddlier to reload than jacketed bullets and I'm hoping someone has sussed out a load for a reduced load for .308 using AR2205 powder that my mate can use? I hope to hear from someone who HAS USED A SAFE LOAD in this caliber with this powder. Please let me know if you have. Thanks.
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Re: .308 Winchester reduced loads using AR2205

Post by Danny » 13 Aug 2021, 1:37 pm

For reduced loads I'd be looking at using 2206h which can have a lower charge weight than starting load. Or trailboss. I think 2205 would be too fast to successfully reduce too much
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Re: .308 Winchester reduced loads using AR2205

Post by SCJ429 » 13 Aug 2021, 1:52 pm

Danny wrote:For reduced loads I'd be looking at using 2206h which can have a lower charge weight than starting load. Or trailboss. I think 2205 would be too fast to successfully reduce too much

The above is what everyone is going to tell you. 2206H is the go or Trailboss which is virtually fool proof.
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Re: .308 Winchester reduced loads using AR2205

Post by Oldbloke » 13 Aug 2021, 2:30 pm

First 2 images are out of the ADI manual.
You risk a detonation using other powders other than AR2206H or trailboss.There is data around for very fast shotgun powders if you search. But I doubt AR2205 is suitable.

Reduced loads 75% of Case capacity.JPG
Reduced loads 75% of Case capacity.JPG (39.94 KiB) Viewed 2944 times


Reduced loads 60% max 2206H.JPG
Reduced loads 60% max 2206H.JPG (72.59 KiB) Viewed 2944 times


Explosive detonation.jpeg
Explosive detonation.jpeg (38.52 KiB) Viewed 2944 times
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Re: .308 Winchester reduced loads using AR2205

Post by bladeracer » 13 Aug 2021, 4:15 pm

wildcard6 wrote:For many years, before I got a .308, I used a .270 for shooting centrefire metallic silhouettes at my local gun club. We shot them at 50, 100, 150 and 200 meters, so most people used cast lead bullets, but that wasn't an option for the .270 without casting my own, which I had no interest in doing. I used four different loads for the different ranges; the first three used Trail Boss [12, 14, 17 grains respectively], but I found I couldn't knock down the Rams at 200m with T/B so I used 18-grains of AR2205 behind [jacketed] bullets in the 150 - 165 grain range and it worked well. There was a big BOOM when it fired, but muzzle velocity was only around 1800 fps and had the desired effect at 200m without causing any damage to the targets.
Now that I've got a .308 I'm using cast lead bullets myself, but I know someone who is getting in to the game but doesn't want to shoot lead bullets, because they're much fiddlier to reload than jacketed bullets and I'm hoping someone has sussed out a load for a reduced load for .308 using AR2205 powder that my mate can use? I hope to hear from someone who HAS USED A SAFE LOAD in this caliber with this powder. Please let me know if you have. Thanks.


Don't bother with AR2205 behind heavy bullets. Use Trailboss or AR2206H.
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Re: .308 Winchester reduced loads using AR2205

Post by disco stu » 13 Aug 2021, 5:08 pm

bladeracer wrote:[

Don't bother with AR2205 behind heavy bullets. Use Trailboss or AR2206H.


Why do you say that? Genuine question trying to learn this stuff, not arguing.
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Re: .308 Winchester reduced loads using AR2205

Post by bladeracer » 13 Aug 2021, 5:47 pm

disco stu wrote:
bladeracer wrote:[

Don't bother with AR2205 behind heavy bullets. Use Trailboss or AR2206H.


Why do you say that? Genuine question trying to learn this stuff, not arguing.


AR2205 is a very fast powder designed to push very light bullets (15gn to 50gn) out of very small volume cartridges - think .17/.22 Hornet, .222Rem sizes.
It's not efficient pushing 150gn+ bullets out of 55gnH2O+ bottlenecked rifle cases.
It'll work, crushed match heads would work, but it's far from a good choice for the job.

ADI suggest AR2205 in .223Rem up to 40gn bullets, no heavier.
They do list an AR2205 load in .30-30, 150gn cast bullet on 19gn making 1970fps (.30-30 is 45gnH2O).
In 300BLK they list AR2205 right up to 230gn bullets, but they're subsonic. They do have a load pushing 175gn jacketed bullets at 1775fps, but 300BLK is almost half the volume of .308 brass. .357Mag is slightly more volume (than .30-30) and makes 2200fps with 110gn bullets, but can only push 170gn bullets to 1535fps at maximum pressures.
It might work well if you fill the empty volume with a filler perhaps.

Adding to this of course, AR2205 (and Trailboss) is not going to be produced in the next couple years, AR2206H is still available, and incredibly versatile. If it were the only powder you had I doubt there is any cartridge you couldn't use it in.
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Re: .308 Winchester reduced loads using AR2205

Post by disco stu » 13 Aug 2021, 7:30 pm

Thanks.
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Re: .308 Winchester reduced loads using AR2205

Post by wildcard6 » 13 Aug 2021, 7:43 pm

I appreciate everyone's input, although you might have missed my reference to my having used - very successfully - AR2205 for YEARS in my .270 using up to 165-grain bullets. I didn't use any filler at all and accuracy was excellent, so no pressure variation to speak of. The point of using '05 was to reduce bullet velocity to the point where it is safe to use a .308 on the Ram target at only 200 meters. I'm personally using 24-grains of 2206H behind 190-grain cast lead bullets, but I'm worried that jacketed bullets might be too fast using the 60% formula suggested [of which I am well aware].
One good point raised of course is the lack of availability of 2205 and Trail Boss and this might be the determining factor in this quest. I'll try the reduced load of '06H with 130 and 155-grain bullets and test them on a swinger to see what damage they do. Thanks all. Wildcard out.
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Re: .308 Winchester reduced loads using AR2205

Post by bladeracer » 13 Aug 2021, 8:28 pm

wildcard6 wrote:I appreciate everyone's input, although you might have missed my reference to my having used - very successfully - AR2205 for YEARS in my .270 using up to 165-grain bullets. I didn't use any filler at all and accuracy was excellent, so no pressure variation to speak of. The point of using '05 was to reduce bullet velocity to the point where it is safe to use a .308 on the Ram target at only 200 meters. I'm personally using 24-grains of 2206H behind 190-grain cast lead bullets, but I'm worried that jacketed bullets might be too fast using the 60% formula suggested [of which I am well aware].
One good point raised of course is the lack of availability of 2205 and Trail Boss and this might be the determining factor in this quest. I'll try the reduced load of '06H with 130 and 155-grain bullets and test them on a swinger to see what damage they do. Thanks all. Wildcard out.


No, I saw that, and I agreed that it does work, it's just not a good choice for the job.

Is the ram mild steel rather than hardened plate? If it's AR500, even full-power jacketed .308 is not going to damage it.

I have been a lot lower than 60% with AR2206H with zero issues, right down to subsonic 180gn loads in 8x57mm.
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Re: .308 Winchester reduced loads using AR2205

Post by in2anity » 13 Aug 2021, 10:32 pm

I use a reduced charge of AR2207 under a 125gr pill. I also use a reduced charge of AR2206H under a 150gr pill. Both around 65%-70% case fill. This is done to keep pressures under 40kpsi in an antiquated Mauser 93 action. In a modern action, I’ve yielded impressive 100m accuracy from a listed AR2207 load under a 125gr spitzer. End personal anecdotes.

Now. 33gr of AR2205 under a 125gr pill in a modern action (i.e 70% case fill) - would I pull the trigger? Yeah I probably would. The first one off the hip. Seating depth plays a part, the deeper you go, the higher the pressure. But there’s not much wiggle room - you go north of 33gr and things get dangerous fairly quickly. I personally wouldn’t do it with any heavier than a 125gr 30cal pill. You accidentally double charge?- bad bad bad DISCLAIMER: this is uncharted territory, safe route is to ignore random forum junkies.
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Re: .308 Winchester reduced loads using AR2205

Post by SCJ429 » 14 Aug 2021, 10:18 am

I think everyone read your description of using 2205 in a 270 and thought that they would not have bothered and gone with another powder. I am betting that if you approach ADI and ask them, they will tell you to use something else for your application.. You should email them, they are very responsive.

If you do go ahead and try to work up a load for 2205, be careful.
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Re: .308 Winchester reduced loads using AR2205

Post by bigpete » 14 Aug 2021, 1:07 pm

Adi are useless as tits on a bull. Maybe once they were good,but not anymore
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Re: .308 Winchester reduced loads using AR2205

Post by bladeracer » 14 Aug 2021, 4:35 pm

bigpete wrote:Adi are useless as tits on a bull. Maybe once they were good,but not anymore


Agreed.
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