Unsizable brass.

[MtnMan]

I just loaded or tried to load 60 .222rem rounds. I annealed the brass, cleaned it then proceeded to neck size it. 6 cases got stuck in the die. That's 10%!

After extraction it was evident from marks on the cases that there was lots of friction near the head end of the case. Apart from annealing the case almost all the way back to the head I'm not sure what else I could do. Even if I attempted to full length resize it would get stuck because it's the rear portion of the case that is getting jammed in the die. Brass is Sellier and Bellot.

Any harm in annealing so far back?
Thoughts?

[straightshooter]

It is dangerous to allow any substantial heat into the solid web area of a case.
It's tensile strength is derived from work hardening in the manufacturing process. The strength is very important as this is the part of the case that partially protrudes beyond the support of the chamber and is relatively poorly supported in some actions.
If the cases are getting stuck in your die then the first suspect is the appropriateness of the lube you use or the way you use it.

[Oldbloke]

You MUST only anneal to just below the shoulder. Any you have annealed to the head are buggered. Strongly suggest you toss them out.

Are you using a neck die or FLRs die?

Did you lube the cases? Including inside the neck?

Resized_20210814_130724.jpeg (268.91 KiB) Viewed 4100 times

A couple of 30.06 cases I annealed. Note the blue line. That's about right.

[MtnMan]

I haven't annealed any beyond the neck I just thought that doing so would be the only way to get them to run through the die since it's the rear part that is getting jammed.
but knew it wouldn't be wise to do so.
Lube is RCBS sizing lube on a pad and I also lube inside the necks and inside the die with a cotton bud. There is plenty of lube.
die is are full length.

sizing a cases has been russian roulette lately. Its a royal PITA!

[bigrich]

I just loaded or tried to load 60 .222rem rounds. I annealed the brass, cleaned it then proceeded to neck size it. 6 cases got stuck in the die. That's 10%!

After extraction it was evident from marks on the cases that there was lots of friction near the head end of the case. Apart from annealing the case almost all the way back to the head I'm not sure what else I could do. Even if I attempted to full length resize it would get stuck because it's the rear portion of the case that is getting jammed in the die. Brass is Sellier and Bellot.

Any harm in annealing so far back?
Thoughts?

i have struck this before with 222 . i had hornady dies and the same thing was happening to me . i was given brand new rem brass , and after full length sizing it would leave a "ridge" on the side of the case above the base . with norma brass the cases were that tight in the sizing die it would rip the rim of the soft norma brass case . i've loaded for a lot of calibers , and know how to set up dies . i asked the old roo shooter who gave me the new rem brass and he just said "yeah , that happens " i ended up just neck sizing and getting new brass after four or more firings . my 222 was wonderfully accurate , but due to cheap/free 223 brass i no longer have it . i haven't struck this sizing problem in any other caliber . the fact i got this "ridge" on new brass left me dumbfounded . maybe a badly formed die ?

[Oldbloke]

He is neck sizing with a FLRs die.

I have found you can only size about half the neck using this method. The die is more than likely screwed down too far. This results in the base of the die beginning to flrs and if not lubed will jam.

Set up die for FLRs. Then screw it out 1 full turn. Try that. Lube the case including inside neck.

I no longer do that method. I just FLRS.

[Oldbloke]

For general information.
This thread has a few links to reloading manuals.

I think its important for all new reloades to read the sections how to reload before starting.


viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13453

[Oldbloke]

This is how I anneal. But do it in the semi dark. Stop when brass turns blueish. Red hot is too hot. And 5-6 seconds works for me too.

No requirement to drop in water. I drop them on a damp cloth.

https://youtu.be/4AJHLafHKCY

[bladeracer]

I just loaded or tried to load 60 .222rem rounds. I annealed the brass, cleaned it then proceeded to neck size it. 6 cases got stuck in the die. That's 10%!

After extraction it was evident from marks on the cases that there was lots of friction near the head end of the case. Apart from annealing the case almost all the way back to the head I'm not sure what else I could do. Even if I attempted to full length resize it would get stuck because it's the rear portion of the case that is getting jammed in the die. Brass is Sellier and Bellot.

Any harm in annealing so far back?
Thoughts?

Did the brass size okay in the same die before you annealed it?
I see you are neck-sizing with a FLS die, how much of the neck are you sizing? Are you lubing the whole case?
Never anneal brass into the bottom half.

[bigrich]

[quote="Oldbloke"]He is neck sizing with a FLRs die.

damn . i missed that part . i gotta read the posts more carefully . or maybe get new glasses

maybe he needs to buy my hornady 222 neck sizing die ........

[Oldbloke]

Your chamber may be a tad big.

[bigrich]

. Even if I attempted to full length resize it would get stuck because it's the rear portion of the case that is getting jammed in the die. Brass is Sellier and Bellot.

hang on OB , i WAS on the right track with my story .

[bigrich]

Your chamber may be a tad big.

i had the same issue with new unfired brass OB . thought i would be thorough and FLS the new brass ........

[Oldbloke]

He is neck sizing with a FLRs die.

damn . i missed that part . i gotta read the posts more carefully . or maybe get new glasses

maybe he needs to buy my hornady 222 neck sizing die ........

Obviously you drink too little. Suggest you rectify that urgently.

[MtnMan]

this batch of brass had been resized a few times before I struck trouble. I suddenly had nearly every case sticking in the die. After copious swearing I walked away, cooled down then realised they need annealing. Did that then still had a few get stuck. been lubing entire case and inside neck. maybe need more.

neck sizing down to within about 2mm of the start of the shoulder. I might screw the die down a bit next time as the case bulging idea might be of some merit.

[Oldbloke]

He is neck sizing with a FLRs die.

I have found you can only size about half the neck using this method. The die is more than likely screwed down too far. This results in the base of the die beginning to flrs and if not lubed will jam.

Set up die for FLRs. Then screw it out 1 full turn. Try that. Lube the case including inside neck.

I no longer do that method. I just FLRS.

[bigrich]

Obviously you drink too little. Suggest you rectify that urgently.

okay doc , i'll get right on that . can you send me a prescription for beer please , i'll see if i can claim it on medicare ......

[Downunder]

Howdy, your process isn’t entirely clear to me, are you are you attempting to NS with NS die, NS with a FLS die or NS and bumping the shoulder with a FLS die?

Any way my 2 c based on limited info.
If the cases are getting stuck towards the base then this issue isn’t hardening at the neck or shoulder and annealing to anyone’s method won’t help. Definitely don’t anneal towards the base, plenty on the net as to why you shouldn’t).

My process of elimination would start with scrubbing and inspection of the die for residue or damage.

Check your brass is clean, there are many views on what constitutes clean brass but at the end of my day removing the contaminates from the outside case, inside neck and primer pocket Is what works for me.

Check the specs on your fire formed cases and compare to SAAMI, in small cartridges fire forming to chamber specs can take a number of firings dependant on loads/pressure, brass quality and chamber dimensions, one of my small cartridges takes 4 firings at maximum loads to fully fire form with factory win brass. I make mention of this as you described that the batch of brass had been resized a number of times previously without issue, it could be the brass has grown to cause an issue through a either a “sloppy chamber” and when ran through a tight spec die the issue arises. The fact that it’s not all the cases that have issues suggests they could be at different growth stages.

Check the manufactures instructions for die set up.

I’d suggest then changing out the lube to imperial wax, in 30 years it still has the best qualities for dealing with friction than any other lube I’ve used (including many home made receipts).

Removing the expander will eliminate the added friction in the process it causes.

By now you should have a good indication of where the issue lies.

Chasing gremlins in the loading process can be frustrating but if you’re methodical in elimination you often find its simple and staining you in the face.

Good luck.

[straightshooter]

Downunder
I concur with most of what you say.
One thing we respondents often overlook is the gap between what the original poster is trying to describe, what the original poster actually describes and the interpretation we as individual readers understands from the original posters description.
Eventually Mtnman may divulge more detail on what he is trying to achieve and how he is going about it.
As for your comment which I presume regards Redding Imperial Sizing Die Wax.
About 25 years ago I tried some when it was being heavily spruiked. It doesn't work nearly as well as Castor Oil. Unfortunately both substances are a pain to completely remove.

[JohnV]

Very soft brass has a lot more friction than hard springy brass . Dirty soft brass even worse . Inside of the neck dirty is worse again .
Anneal the whole length of the case and add poor lube and it's a stuck case . Chuck those case you annealed down to the head .
Separate your sizing operations using a Redding body die and a neck size only die . Start again with other brass and clean inside the necks as well as outside the case . Buy some RCBS Liquid resizing lube for the case body . Use 50% moly / Graphite mix for lube inside the necks or buy a Lee Collet neck die and no lube needed 99% of the time .

[Downunder]

@straightshooter

Yes, we like to think we can read the intentions of others and more often than not come up short.
I try to take that into account when providing an opinion or my methodology.

I’ve tried and used a few lubricants over the years both bought and concoctions, I’ve found there’s variables that impact what works adequately and even best with different fire cases and dies. More of a personal anecdotal observation but I find in some chambering/die combinations it’s more difficult to manage build up vs lubrication using liquids unless there’s evaporation agent in them.
I can’t remember if I’ve ever tried castor oil, might see if there’s any in the cooks cupboard and give it a run. Is it used straight or in a recipe like lanolin?

[disco stu]

I don't believe he has actually annealed the cases, just stated that apart from that he isn't sure what else to try

[MtnMan]

What Disco Stu said. I annealed the necks, then neck sized them in a full length die. some got stuck because of the friction near the head of the case, which made me come to the conclusion that apart from annealing further back towards the head (which I know you shouldn't do) I don't know how else to get those cases to go in AND OUT of the die.

[MtnMan]

after annealing the necks the necks are like butter in the die, it's the rear portion causing them to get stuck.

Things I can think of are-
Use more lube.
polish the die.

[bigrich]

after annealing the necks the necks are like butter in the die, it's the rear portion causing them to get stuck.

Things I can think of are-
Use more lube.
polish the die.

as stated in a post previously , i had the same issue with 222 brass . what brand of die are you using

[Oldbloke]

Mtnman, can you describe how you annealed the necks & did you heat them to Cherry red or blue?

[Oldbloke]

As I have already mentioned. When you only neck size using a FLS die you can only do about half the neck. If you screw in the die any further you are starting to FLS. Well, that's been my experience.

PS I just use Diff oil as a lube.

[bigrich]

As I have already mentioned. When you only neck size using a FLS die you can only do about half the neck. If you screw in the die any further you are starting to FLS. Well, that's been my experience.

PS I just use Diff oil as a lube.

partially full length resizing is a 22 hornet trick i've used . your leaving enough of the fired case size to centre the case in the chamber with enough neck to grip the projectile . add a light crimp and small pistol primers and voila ! super accurate 22 hornet

have i mentioned i have a 222 neck sizing die just sitting around, waiting for a new home

[bladeracer]

As I have already mentioned. When you only neck size using a FLS die you can only do about half the neck. If you screw in the die any further you are starting to FLS. Well, that's been my experience.

PS I just use Diff oil as a lube.

Yep, though it depends on the cartridge taper, 7.62x54R and .303 are pretty good for FLS neck-sizing.

[MtnMan]

dies are Redding.
Annealed by holding the case in the shellholder part of my case trimmer in a cordless drill. held neck over gas flame while spinning until barely dull red and quenched in water.