Unsizable brass.

[Oldbloke]

dies are Redding.
1.Annealed by holding the case in the shellholder part of my case trimmer in a cordless drill.

2. held neck over gas flame while spinning until barely dull red and quenched in water.

1. As good a way as any. Much like how I do it.

2. Dull red is too hot. Brass is likely too soft now. If you manage to size and fire might work hard again if your lucky. If it was done in normal daylight they will be buggered.

A. I use much the same method.
B. Do it in low light situation, this way you see them turn red earlier. Red is too hot.
C. 5 seconds till it turns blue,,,no more.
D. There is no need to quench, it is brass, not steel.

[GQshayne]

I use Hornady Unique case lube. A bit on your fingers and then rub over the cases. A small amount on the finger tips will do a few cases. I also use it on a cotton tip inside the necks but I only do small volumes. I recommend this over the case lube pad method.

How does it work when you full length resize??

[MtnMan]

don't quench for annealing brass? that's how you anneal copper...by quenching. you harden steel by quenching

[No1_49er]

This is how I anneal. But do it in the semi dark. Stop when brass turns blueish. Red hot is too hot. And 5-6 seconds works for me too.

No requirement to drop in water. I drop them on a damp cloth.

https://youtu.be/4AJHLafHKCY

Whenever I see a post that expounds a method such as this, I will keep posting this.

"I am always concerned that "the cheap way" is promoted as being as good as the results one might expect from an annealing machine and the use of some method of determining the actual temperature (Templac paste) achieved. If you don't know the temperature, you're wasting your time (and effort).
Whilst I agree that this article ( http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html ) essentially promotes the authors machine, the contents of the article are about the science of the process. Yes, it is a science, and an exacting one at that. Read it, and perhaps do so a second time.
Would you use the same amount of flame thrower to prepare a 17 hornet as, say, a 303Br? Unless you know the temperature, your p***ing into the wind.
You will learn also that quenching does absolutely nothing to the property of the brass, other than to cool it a bit quicker so that you can handle it comfortably.
If you consider annealing to be a useful exercise, then at least do it properly".

Anybody who wants to undertake the process of annealing MUST understand that it is a precise process, based in science, which requires very specific control measures.

Best solution?
Get together with some of your buddies, buy and share the use of an A.M.P induction machine.

And a parting comment: I have often read that some people believe that fresh "out of the box" brass has not been annealed, because there is no evidence of that lovely colouration one sees with the likes of Lapua brass. Horse s**t. Every piece of brass ever made goes through multiple stages of swaging, drawing, and so on during its somewhat stressful journey to finished item from a blank piece of metal. Some manufacturers end the process by polishing, prior to packaging hence no colouration. Lapua (and others) - why polish off evidence of beauty?

[Oldbloke]

don't quench for annealing brass? that's how you anneal copper...by quenching. you harden steel by quenching

It does nothing

[JohnV]

@straightshooter

Yes, we like to think we can read the intentions of others and more often than not come up short.
I try to take that into account when providing an opinion or my methodology.

I’ve tried and used a few lubricants over the years both bought and concoctions, I’ve found there’s variables that impact what works adequately and even best with different fire cases and dies. More of a personal anecdotal observation but I find in some chambering/die combinations it’s more difficult to manage build up vs lubrication using liquids unless there’s evaporation agent in them.
I can’t remember if I’ve ever tried castor oil, might see if there’s any in the cooks cupboard and give it a run. Is it used straight or in a recipe like lanolin?

Not such a problem using a body die and you only use a very thin smear rolled on with a pad and none on the shoulder so build up and denting can't really happen .

[Oldbloke]

No 1 49er.
I would never claim that what I do is precise or perfect.

I agree that the more precise the temperature the better.

But colour is a pretty good indicator. Therefore since I am not shooting the fly and simply trying to extent the life of my brass, IMO, I think it does the job OK. Perfect no. But I don't need perfect.

Is it better than just heating till it's red, no doubt, yes.

The number of rounds I fire would never justify an AMP or even part thereof.

[JohnV]

Even though an annealed neck will squish down easier it does not mean it slides out easier .
The Annealed brass surface is stickier than the hard brass surface . When using old fashioned expander ball dies you have to get the inside and outside of the necks very clean and use a good dry lube inside the necks and another lube on the case outside .
I have not used a FLS die in decades there is much better ways to do the job .

[disco stu]

.
I have not used a FLS die in decades there is much better ways to do the job .

Can you explain the better ways.

[Downunder]

@straightshooter

Yes, we like to think we can read the intentions of others and more often than not come up short.
I try to take that into account when providing an opinion or my methodology.

I’ve tried and used a few lubricants over the years both bought and concoctions, I’ve found there’s variables that impact what works adequately and even best with different fire cases and dies. More of a personal anecdotal observation but I find in some chambering/die combinations it’s more difficult to manage build up vs lubrication using liquids unless there’s evaporation agent in them.
I can’t remember if I’ve ever tried castor oil, might see if there’s any in the cooks cupboard and give it a run. Is it used straight or in a recipe like lanolin?

Not such a problem using a body die and you only use a very thin smear rolled on with a pad and none on the shoulder so build up and denting can't really happen .

I don’t use body dies.
I have a Redding FLS die that draws a fine line between stuck cases and dented shoulders, one shot gets cases stuck, RCBS case lube dents shoulders, wax no problems. One day I’ll drill a vent hole in it and polish the body, might make it more receptive to variation.

[bigrich]

dies are Redding.
Annealed by holding the case in the shellholder part of my case trimmer in a cordless drill. held neck over gas flame while spinning until barely dull red and quenched in water.

i use the same method. i use a adaptor in my cordless drill that takes a tune socket for the case to sit in . i hold the case 10 mm of the inner blue torch flame and count to 11 , then drop the case in a bucket of water. i heat my cases till they go dark blue around the neck . don't heat till red . i've converted a lot of 308 brass to 358win . i've had no issues and the accuracy is as good as factory starline brass . i've been converting PPU and ADI brass which is better than the starline i reckon
i never solved the problem of my issues with 222 brass . the barrel was a swan , wouldn't expect a oversize chamber . i thought it might have something to do with my hornady die as i had this problem with new unfired brass . i was going to get a smith to linish a couple of though off the inside of the die near the bottom to correct this problem . as the new brass chambered fine in my chamber without FLS , i couldn't see modifiying the die in this manner as a problem so long as it's still within SAMI spec

[Downunder]

Annealing is such an polarising topic.....

I’ve seen qualified metallurgists argue with each other.....

Sometimes enough effort isn’t put into reading the science but on the other hand there’s plenty of occasions where science isn’t wholly supported in real world outcomes.

Years ago I made it a habit of not telling people they’re annealing “wrong“(unless there’s method placed them at risk), I’m happy to discuss my journey, the miserable failures, the successes but I’m tipping most like me have their own setup, system and method.

Personally I’ve moved past the socket and butane torch mainly for consistency and volume in reforming and sizing yet my long range hunting mates using big not common cartridges still use the manual drill/socket method for solely increasing brass workability/life and it works for them.

An AMP induction Annealer would be nice but for me the minimal added results both down range and in brass life pushes it from the list of needs past want and onto like.

There’s some good info including some surprising results using measurable tools on a fella by the name of Erik Cortina’s YT channel in regards to annealing with a torch, I think he also has a side by side comparison and shootout of an AMP Induction v Benchsource twin torch again with surprising results to me.

https://youtube.com/c/ErikCortina

[bigrich]

THE main thing i do with my anealing process downunder is consistancy . there's definately more than one way to skin a cat , my method gives a result that looks identical to factory PPU anealing . it works for me .

i'm a metal worker by trade, and have worked in a foundry as well so i have a basic understanding of heat treatment of metals . your much better off under anealing the necks than over doing it . when i was first experimenting with this,(and experimenting is required to learn how to make the individual process work ) i got too much heat into norma 222 brass . it got waaay soft even down to near the primer pocket smaller cases need less heating time compared to large cases . i count to 7 for 223 brass , and 11 for my 308/358 brass . i heat till a dark blue , the colour of the heated brass is the indicator to the tempreature

i should just buy a bloody anealing machine . saw a locally made one for sale online . but back to MM's FLS brass sizing , run the verniers over the cases that have been sized and see if it's too spec or undersized . just a idea

[JohnV]

.
I have not used a FLS die in decades there is much better ways to do the job .

Can you explain the better ways.

Dump the FLS die and get a Redding Body die to size the case body and any bump of the shoulder required then get a neck size only die like a Lee Collet die , a Redding bushing neck die . If you don't skim neck turn then the Lee Collet is better for uneven neck wall thickness . If you skim neck turn the bushing die works better with more consistent neck wall thickness .
A stuck case in a body die is a simple matter to extract with a punch and hammer . However due to the reduced contact area of the sizing , a stuck case is very rare in a body die if you use a clean case and some lube .

[JohnV]

@straightshooter

Yes, we like to think we can read the intentions of others and more often than not come up short.
I try to take that into account when providing an opinion or my methodology.

I’ve tried and used a few lubricants over the years both bought and concoctions, I’ve found there’s variables that impact what works adequately and even best with different fire cases and dies. More of a personal anecdotal observation but I find in some chambering/die combinations it’s more difficult to manage build up vs lubrication using liquids unless there’s evaporation agent in them.
I can’t remember if I’ve ever tried castor oil, might see if there’s any in the cooks cupboard and give it a run. Is it used straight or in a recipe like lanolin?

Not such a problem using a body die and you only use a very thin smear rolled on with a pad and none on the shoulder so build up and denting can't really happen .

I don’t use body dies.
I have a Redding FLS die that draws a fine line between stuck cases and dented shoulders, one shot gets cases stuck, RCBS case lube dents shoulders, wax no problems. One day I’ll drill a vent hole in it and polish the body, might make it more receptive to variation.

If you are using RCBS liquid and getting dents your using too much and doing too many at a time before giving the die a bit of a dry out with patches and start again . Don't put any lube on the shoulder . Imperial wax works fine also.

[straightshooter]

I can’t remember if I’ve ever tried castor oil, might see if there’s any in the cooks cupboard and give it a run. Is it used straight or in a recipe like lanolin?

Use it straight.
My technique is to moisten a small piece of cotton rag so that it leaves a very thin smear on the brass. If the rag is too wet it will leave too much oil in the die and dents will eventuate.
As a general guide I use it for really heavy duty sizing such as full length sizing in a small base die or case reforming. For example a couple of years ago when I bought a rifle in 250 Savage I was able to reform once fired 308 Winchester brass in one pass with relatively few failures.
For light sizing all commercial lubes work OK as do some of the youtube hillbilly concoctions.
The simple fact is that castor oil has the lowest coefficient of friction of any lubricant in the instance of brass on steel.
Castor oil was once the go to cure for constipation in children.
As an interesting side note, castor oil was one of the preferred torture methods of Mussolini's black shirts. The victim was force fed castor oil repeatedly with inevitable results.

[disco stu]

.
I have not used a FLS die in decades there is much better ways to do the job .

Can you explain the better ways.

Dump the FLS die and get a Redding Body die to size the case body and any bump of the shoulder required then get a neck size only die like a Lee ......

Thanks. I'm in the learning stages of all this so didn't even realise there were alternatives

[Downunder]

[quote="bigrich"]THE main thing i do with my anealing process downunder is consistancy....
Consistency has become a cult like religion to me, it plays into my OCD.

[Downunder]

@straightshooter

Yes, we like to think we can read the intentions of others and more often than not come up short.
I try to take that into account when providing an opinion or my methodology.

I’ve tried and used a few lubricants over the years both bought and concoctions, I’ve found there’s variables that impact what works adequately and even best with different fire cases and dies. More of a personal anecdotal observation but I find in some chambering/die combinations it’s more difficult to manage build up vs lubrication using liquids unless there’s evaporation agent in them.
I can’t remember if I’ve ever tried castor oil, might see if there’s any in the cooks cupboard and give it a run. Is it used straight or in a recipe like lanolin?

Not such a problem using a body die and you only use a very thin smear rolled on with a pad and none on the shoulder so build up and denting can't really happen .

I don’t use body dies.
I have a Redding FLS die that draws a fine line between stuck cases and dented shoulders, one shot gets cases stuck, RCBS case lube dents shoulders, wax no problems. One day I’ll drill a vent hole in it and polish the body, might make it more receptive to variation.

If you are using RCBS liquid and getting dents your using too much and doing too many at a time before giving the die a bit of a dry out with patches and start again . Don't put any lube on the shoulder . Imperial wax works fine also.[/quote

One could think that but as fore-mentioned it’s an impossible line between stuck cases and dented necks
Simply don’t get it with wax.

[JohnV]

One could think that but as fore-mentioned it’s an impossible line between stuck cases and dented necks
Simply don’t get it with wax.

That's simply not correct I used Redding FLS dies for a long time before about 1970 and had very few denting problems and a single stuck case due to a rough faulty Lyman die .
You were just not doing it right . Fancy wording in a post does not mean you know anything .

[bigrich]

THE main thing i do with my anealing process downunder is consistancy....
Consistency has become a cult like religion to me, it plays into my OCD.

there's many little different tricks/ways to reload, doing it consistantly to get the same result is the end game for consistant accuracy to me . it doesn't matter to me if i'm not getting benchrest accuracy by weighing cases ect . my rifles are for hunting , but i've still gotten extremely good accuracy out of a lot of my rifles . it's getting the same performance rain, hail or shine that matters. i'm actually going to revisit crimping in my 358win soon , after 6 months of sitting, some 180 grain loads i crimped shot exactly as when the rest were loaded . the reason for crimping these is there's not much projectile in the case compared to 225 gn loads .

[JohnV]

Definitely agree that annealing must be very consistent across the batch to get consistent neck tensions .
That is why when the necks get harder and group accuracy drops off . It's because they don't get consistently harder .
You can usually feel any large hardness inconsistency when bullet seating . That is the one complaint I have about Redding Comp bullet seaters is that I can't feel the bullet seating as well as with older type dies . The seating is more accurate but less feel . Maybe it's me I don't know .

[JohnV]

THE main thing i do with my anealing process downunder is consistancy....
Consistency has become a cult like religion to me, it plays into my OCD.

there's many little different tricks/ways to reload, doing it consistantly to get the same result is the end game for consistant accuracy to me . it doesn't matter to me if i'm not getting benchrest accuracy by weighing cases ect . my rifles are for hunting , but i've still gotten extremely good accuracy out of a lot of my rifles . it's getting the same performance rain, hail or shine that matters. i'm actually going to revisit crimping in my 358win soon , after 6 months of sitting, some 180 grain loads i crimped shot exactly as when the rest were loaded . the reason for crimping these is there's not much projectile in the case compared to 225 gn loads .

I don't like crimping on any precision round or expensive target bullet . In a 358 W it would be a personal choice .
However there is another way to beat neck weld . Just seat the bullets a bit long and mark the boxes that way . Then when the rounds need to be used seat them again to the right distance off the lands and crimp then if required . That breaks any neck weld tendency and makes the batch more consistent .

[bigrich]

THE main thing i do with my anealing process downunder is consistancy....
Consistency has become a cult like religion to me, it plays into my OCD.

there's many little different tricks/ways to reload, doing it consistantly to get the same result is the end game for consistant accuracy to me . it doesn't matter to me if i'm not getting benchrest accuracy by weighing cases ect . my rifles are for hunting , but i've still gotten extremely good accuracy out of a lot of my rifles . it's getting the same performance rain, hail or shine that matters. i'm actually going to revisit crimping in my 358win soon , after 6 months of sitting, some 180 grain loads i crimped shot exactly as when the rest were loaded . the reason for crimping these is there's not much projectile in the case compared to 225 gn loads .

I don't like crimping on any precision round or expensive target bullet . In a 358 W it would be a personal choice .
However there is another way to beat neck weld . Just seat the bullets a bit long and mark the boxes that way . Then when the rounds need to be used seat them again to the right distance off the lands and crimp then if required . That breaks any neck weld tendency and makes the batch more consistent .

yeah my 358 is not a target rifle , but having said that it will cut a vertical slot at 100 with a loopy scope on 5 power . that's with 225 BTSP sierra's in FLS brass no crimp. BUT , with the recoil the projectiles move back into the case . i've checked this .i'll come back a few grains of powder and crimp and see what happens . the crimp gives a neck tension that remains consistant over time . i was quite supprised with the 180 load i detailed earlier . crimp is a advantage with the 22 hornet to stop bullet jump and improves accuracy . all these different calibers have their different quirks .......

[pomemax]

Can you describe they way in detail how you anneal from the way I read it sounds like your heating then quenching in water that,s hardening the brass or at most tempering the brass
temperature your brass needs to get varies a bit, ranging from 600 to 800 degrees Fahrenheit that’s 315 to 420 Celsius watch a few videos on youtube no one quenches brass?


1. try heating a few then just let them cool on a steel tray clean and retry them

[disco stu]

Quenching doesn't affect brass hardness, only steel.

[bigrich]

Quenching doesn't affect brass hardness, only steel.

that's what i've been led to believe . definately doesn't seem to be hurting my brass

[Oldbloke]

Quenching doesn't affect brass hardness, only steel.

Thanks I think I've said it twice, now you.

There is no point dropping it in water. Just gives you more work drying the brass.
The process is complete once it reaches the correct temp. Then just remove from the flame.

It's brass, not iron/steel.

See the problem is, people see something on multimedia and take it as gospel and never check or think critically about what they read / see.

There is truck loads of info saying to heat it to red hot and its simply wrong. Same with quenching.

[Downunder]

I can’t remember if I’ve ever tried castor oil, might see if there’s any in the cooks cupboard and give it a run. Is it used straight or in a recipe like lanolin?

Use it straight.
My technique is to moisten a small piece of cotton rag so that it leaves a very thin smear on the brass. If the rag is too wet it will leave too much oil in the die and dents will eventuate.
As a general guide I use it for really heavy duty sizing such as full length sizing in a small base die or case reforming. For example a couple of years ago when I bought a rifle in 250 Savage I was able to reform once fired 308 Winchester brass in one pass with relatively few failures.
For light sizing all commercial lubes work OK as do some of the youtube hillbilly concoctions.
The simple fact is that castor oil has the lowest coefficient of friction of any lubricant in the instance of brass on steel.
Castor oil was once the go to cure for constipation in children.
As an interesting side note, castor oil was one of the preferred torture methods of Mussolini's black shirts. The victim was force fed castor oil repeatedly with inevitable results.

Ta