Monitoring for excess pressure-case head expansion best?

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Monitoring for excess pressure-case head expansion best?

Post by disco stu » 08 Sep 2021, 4:57 pm

So I'm reading a bunch of stuff on reloading, and one area I figure every new loader would be concerned about would be excess pressure.

So the ABCs of reloading basically said observing of primers, indentations in the head face and difficulty opening bolt or extracting. The John Wooters book went one further and really recommended measuring for case head expansion.

While I'm pedantic enough to like the idea of measuring case heads, micrometer capable of measuring to 10 000ths of an inch aren't exactly cheap. I also figure that most reloaders wouldn't own such tools.

So how important is measuring case head expansion for beginner reloaders who aren't trying to make hot loads or necessarily go to the maximum listed in the manuals?

If it's not important, are the things I listed what to focus on or are there other things not on the list that are important to check?

This would be for hunting for me, not sure if that makes a difference though.

Cheers, Stu
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Re: Monitoring for excess pressure-case head expansion best?

Post by Oldbloke » 08 Sep 2021, 5:21 pm

disco stu wrote:So how important is measuring case head expansion for beginner reloaders who aren't trying to make hot loads or necessarily go to the maximum listed in the manuals?


Dont bother. Your starting out. Just look for sticky extraction and flat or cratered primers.
Your not shooting the 500 yard fly.

Start low, work up till you get a decent, accurate load. Then stop. Job done. If you want tweek but you don't have to.

Then your away. Worry about fine detail later once you have loaded a few hundred rounds
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Re: Monitoring for excess pressure-case head expansion best?

Post by bladeracer » 08 Sep 2021, 5:31 pm

disco stu wrote:So I'm reading a bunch of stuff on reloading, and one area I figure every new loader would be concerned about would be excess pressure.

So the ABCs of reloading basically said observing of primers, indentations in the head face and difficulty opening bolt or extracting. The John Wooters book went one further and really recommended measuring for case head expansion.

While I'm pedantic enough to like the idea of measuring case heads, micrometer capable of measuring to 10 000ths of an inch aren't exactly cheap. I also figure that most reloaders wouldn't own such tools.

So how important is measuring case head expansion for beginner reloaders who aren't trying to make hot loads or necessarily go to the maximum listed in the manuals?

If it's not important, are the things I listed what to focus on or are there other things not on the list that are important to check?

This would be for hunting for me, not sure if that makes a difference though.

Cheers, Stu


Maximum loads in load data are not necessarily maximum loads in your firearm with your reloading method, you might see pressure signs well below or not until well above the listed maximum. Maximum loads would be before you start seeing pressure signs, a tight primary extraction is probably the first obvious sign that you need to back off.

Only really becomes important when you start pushing the pressure limits, which the vast majority of shooters have no reason to do. It's really a comparative measurement to see if there's any expansion after firing, measure the case head of the fire-formed (do not re-size the case head) loaded cartridge, fire it, measure it again. I don't think cases have the consistency to allow you to simply measure a batch and derive useful data from it.

For hunting I can't think of any reason to chase another 100fps or 200fps out of a load, I rarely load anything even to factory levels. For long-range target shooting with a bullet that doesn't transition well you may have to push the limit to stay above transition velocity at the target.
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Re: Monitoring for excess pressure-case head expansion best?

Post by on_one_wheel » 08 Sep 2021, 6:58 pm

bladeracer wrote:
disco stu wrote:So I'm reading a bunch of stuff on reloading, and one area I figure every new loader would be concerned about would be excess pressure.

So the ABCs of reloading basically said observing of primers, indentations in the head face and difficulty opening bolt or extracting. The John Wooters book went one further and really recommended measuring for case head expansion.

While I'm pedantic enough to like the idea of measuring case heads, micrometer capable of measuring to 10 000ths of an inch aren't exactly cheap. I also figure that most reloaders wouldn't own such tools.

So how important is measuring case head expansion for beginner reloaders who aren't trying to make hot loads or necessarily go to the maximum listed in the manuals?

If it's not important, are the things I listed what to focus on or are there other things not on the list that are important to check?

This would be for hunting for me, not sure if that makes a difference though.

Cheers, Stu


Maximum loads in load data are not necessarily maximum loads in your firearm with your reloading method, you might see pressure signs well below or not until well above the listed maximum. Maximum loads would be before you start seeing pressure signs, a tight primary extraction is probably the first obvious sign that you need to back off.

Only really becomes important when you start pushing the pressure limits, which the vast majority of shooters have no reason to do. It's really a comparative measurement to see if there's any expansion after firing, measure the case head of the fire-formed (do not re-size the case head) loaded cartridge, fire it, measure it again. I don't think cases have the consistency to allow you to simply measure a batch and derive useful data from it.

For hunting I can't think of any reason to chase another 100fps or 200fps out of a load, I rarely load anything even to factory levels. For long-range target shooting with a bullet that doesn't transition well you may have to push the limit to stay above transition velocity at the target.


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Re: Monitoring for excess pressure-case head expansion best?

Post by disco stu » 08 Sep 2021, 7:39 pm

Thanks guys.

Old Bloke: I know that's exactly what you have mentioned before, just wasn't sue if it was still an issue or what

BR: yeah, that's my concern-the fact I may be seeing over pressure while I'm still down on what I think should be my maximum. Not know what I'm looking at due to inexperience is also on my mind. Knowing that extraction will show signs is good to know also. I think the best method then is probably to shoot a few factory rounds before going into my reloads just so I've got the feel of what is normal.

I'm certainly not looking for the fastest round or anything like that, just want to make sure I'm safe in case my rifle is a bit different.

Still a while away though. Have to get let out of house arrest, the guy has to pick up the reloading gear I'm meant to be getting off him, and the shop has to actually have powder and primers for me to put into these mythical reloads.

Appreciate the responses, thanks
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Re: Monitoring for excess pressure-case head expansion best?

Post by bladeracer » 08 Sep 2021, 8:13 pm

disco stu wrote:Thanks guys.

Old Bloke: I know that's exactly what you have mentioned before, just wasn't sue if it was still an issue or what

BR: yeah, that's my concern-the fact I may be seeing over pressure while I'm still down on what I think should be my maximum. Not know what I'm looking at due to inexperience is also on my mind. Knowing that extraction will show signs is good to know also. I think the best method then is probably to shoot a few factory rounds before going into my reloads just so I've got the feel of what is normal.

I'm certainly not looking for the fastest round or anything like that, just want to make sure I'm safe in case my rifle is a bit different.

Still a while away though. Have to get let out of house arrest, the guy has to pick up the reloading gear I'm meant to be getting off him, and the shop has to actually have powder and primers for me to put into these mythical reloads.

Appreciate the responses, thanks


I think the easiest way to learn pressure indicators is to start low and inspect your brass and primers thoroughly. Then start increasing the charge and keep inspecting. Most likely the first thing you'll see is the rounded outer edge of the primer will start to square off at pressure increases. It doesn't indicate high pressure though, just that pressure is increasing. If you keep going the primer will flatten and completely close up the ring around it, you might also see the striker indent swelling into the striker hole in the bolt face. This still doesn't usually indicate high pressures, but if you have very hard primer cups it may do. The primer cup is _much_ softer than the brass case head, and the pressure in the primer is being funneled through the flash hole inside the case. If you are not seeing other pressure signs you can try a harder primer.

You should also see a faint ring around the case body, though with very light loads this will be imperceptible. As pressure builds, the heavier case walls start to flow (the walls of the case are thin at the mouth but taper down to being quite thick at the case head, requiring much more pressure to deform them) and expand to the chamber wall further down the case, leaving this discolouration. You can watch it move down the case as you increase the charge, but it is not necessarily indicating excessive pressure, just that there is pressure. If the ring stops moving down the case, and starts becoming more obvious you may be heading toward case head separation.

I also measure case length after sizing to see how much the brass flowed forward, with my light loads it can take several firings to even get .001" longer. Also measure the shoulder length if you can, and monitor that after firing.

Always look carefully for shiny spots around the base of the case after firing. As the brass flows under higher pressures it will start to mould itself into any features on the bolt face, like the ejector hole - this is an excellent indicator of excessive pressures, one that you really never want to see. With these you should certainly be able to measure case head expansion.

When you are starting out though I strongly recommend staying away from any pressure indications while you hone your loading technique. Pressure does not increase linearly, a 20gn charge might make 40,000psi, 22gn might make 45,000psi, but 23gn might make 55,000psi due to the reduced empty space in the case and other factors. As pressure increases you want to take smaller bites at it. Small discrepancies in technique can lead to significant pressure spikes, which can be nasty when you are already pushing the pressures. If you have a hottish load in neck-sized brass, then full-length-size it, you might see 100fps or more increase in velocity due to the reduced volume with the same charge. Or if your bullets creep out or in under recoil in the magazine until they jam into the rifling or reduce the volume of the case, you will also see a spike. When working with heavier bullets or higher recoil (due to a lightweight rifle for example) it pays to leave some rounds in the magazine through repeated firings, then inspect them to see if they are the same length as when you loaded them, if not you may want to crimp the bullets. Keep on eye on heavily-compressed loads, the bullets may creep out from the pressure before you get to fire them, so when you do the bullet might be biting into the rifling.

Spikes are usually fairly obvious because they are extreme, more recoil, more blast, more noise, and such. Any time something happens that feels "different", stop and try to determine what it was before you continue, including pulling the bolt and looking down the bore to be sure it's clear. Sometimes it happens for reasons you can't confirm, like a bullet moved in or out in a cartridge and you didn't notice.
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Re: Monitoring for excess pressure-case head expansion best?

Post by bladeracer » 08 Sep 2021, 8:19 pm

disco stu wrote:I think the best method then is probably to shoot a few factory rounds before going into my reloads just so I've got the feel of what is normal.


This is probably sensible, but when I started loading I had never fired any centrefire cartridge other than 5.56mm in an M16, and some 12ga. with Army Cadets two or three years earlier. I didn't even know anybody with a centrefire rifle.

I bought my first centrefire rifle, the .222Rem, a box of brass, several boxes of bullets, a can of IMR4198, some primers, a Lee Loader, and just went for it. That rifle never saw a factory round, and hardly any of my centrefire rifles see factory ammo while I own them.
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Re: Monitoring for excess pressure-case head expansion best?

Post by disco stu » 08 Sep 2021, 9:01 pm

Thanks BR. That's all really helpful. I'm be sure to revisit this once I can actually start loading and shooting.

When you talk about the ring around the case body, does this image show that? I was wondering about this, and in the books they talked about rings there being bad. These are from Remington 150gr core lokt factory 308
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Re: Monitoring for excess pressure-case head expansion best?

Post by ZaineB » 08 Sep 2021, 9:03 pm

Oldbloke wrote:
disco stu wrote:So how important is measuring case head expansion for beginner reloaders who aren't trying to make hot loads or necessarily go to the maximum listed in the manuals?


Dont bother. Your starting out. Just look for sticky extraction and flat or cratered primers.
Your not shooting the 500 yard fly.

Start low, work up till you get a decent, accurate load. Then stop. Job done. If you want tweek but you don't have to.

Then your away. Worry about fine detail later once you have loaded a few hundred rounds


as OB says, lots of people aim for stupid high speeds when in reality the accuracy nodes probably aren't anywhere near top speed/pressure
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Re: Monitoring for excess pressure-case head expansion best?

Post by bladeracer » 08 Sep 2021, 10:10 pm

disco stu wrote:Thanks BR. That's all really helpful. I'm be sure to revisit this once I can actually start loading and shooting.

When you talk about the ring around the case body, does this image show that? I was wondering about this, and in the books they talked about rings there being bad. These are from Remington 150gr core lokt factory 308


Yes, that's where the case is no longer being forced out against the chamber wall.
Be aware that sizing dies often only size down the same area though, which can also leave a similar mark. It only becomes a problem if the brass starts thinning there as eventually it will tear apart.
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Re: Monitoring for excess pressure-case head expansion best?

Post by Oldbloke » 08 Sep 2021, 10:34 pm

There are more experienced that me here. Im sure they will express an opinion. Lol But IMO the one on the right is a normal load.

The one on the left, more flattened and some "cratering" around the firing pin dent. IMO, about max. I would back off 0.5 grain.

The one on the left you would only need to seat the bullet out a bit far by mistake to get into trouble. I think case life would be short too.

(Pic is just off the www)

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Re: Monitoring for excess pressure-case head expansion best?

Post by disco stu » 08 Sep 2021, 10:43 pm

bladeracer wrote:
disco stu wrote:Thanks BR. That's all really helpful. I'm be sure to revisit this once I can actually start loading and shooting.

When you talk about the ring around the case body, does this image show that? I was wondering about this, and in the books they talked about rings there being bad. These are from Remington 150gr core lokt factory 308


Yes, that's where the case is no longer being forced out against the chamber wall.
Be aware that sizing dies often only size down the same area though, which can also leave a similar mark. It only becomes a problem if the brass starts thinning there as eventually it will tear apart.


Thanks. Makes perfect sense with what you said before, cheers
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Re: Monitoring for excess pressure-case head expansion best?

Post by disco stu » 08 Sep 2021, 10:48 pm

Oldbloke wrote:There are more experienced that me here. Im sure they will express an opinion. Lol But IMO the one on the right is a normal load.

The one on the left, more flattened and some "cratering" around the firing pin dent. IMO, about max. I would back off 0.5 grain.

The one on the left you would only need to seat the bullet out a bit far by mistake to get into trouble. I think case life would be short too.

(Pic is just off the www)

Image110.jpg


Sweet, thanks. What's with the mark seen in the "super" on the left and left to the "P"on the right? Anything to go by?

There are no other marks on the left hand case, and no smearing or similar. Do they normally come when going above the level seen here?
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Re: Monitoring for excess pressure-case head expansion best?

Post by Oldbloke » 09 Sep 2021, 12:06 am

Just "dings" from use I think. Perhaps been dropped on concrete.
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Re: Monitoring for excess pressure-case head expansion best?

Post by deye243 » 09 Sep 2021, 12:06 am

Yeah don't get too hung up about cratering I have a rifle here that will crater any load you put in it it needs the the firing pin reprofiled and sleeved .
The top one is a very mild load but the bottom is a load that was hot to test to see if it would Pierce a primer and you can see the ejector imprint on the case head (red arrow) you don't want to go here .
As long as your primer edges are still rounded like the top one is you are in good territory.

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Re: Monitoring for excess pressure-case head expansion best?

Post by disco stu » 09 Sep 2021, 9:48 am

Cheers deye243. Pretty clear comparison. Those rings you can see on the lower part of the bottom case, is that the "smearing" from lifting the bolt on over pressure load?
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Re: Monitoring for excess pressure-case head expansion best?

Post by northdude » 09 Sep 2021, 1:18 pm

every one has their own ideas something I have found is some calibers be a little bit more tolerant of pressure. Also if you change the brand of brass that can sometimes cause pressure signs as the internal capacity of the case can be slightly different thats what ive found on a couple of occasions anyway.
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Re: Monitoring for excess pressure-case head expansion best?

Post by disco stu » 09 Sep 2021, 2:57 pm

northdude wrote:every one has their own ideas something I have found is some calibers be a little bit more tolerant of pressure. Also if you change the brand of brass that can sometimes cause pressure signs as the internal capacity of the case can be slightly different thats what ive found on a couple of occasions anyway.


Thanks. I was initially going to get a bunch of mixed once fired brass, but I now figure I really should grab a heap of the same brand for the reason you mention
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Re: Monitoring for excess pressure-case head expansion best?

Post by deye243 » 09 Sep 2021, 3:08 pm

disco stu wrote:
northdude wrote:every one has their own ideas something I have found is some calibers be a little bit more tolerant of pressure. Also if you change the brand of brass that can sometimes cause pressure signs as the internal capacity of the case can be slightly different thats what ive found on a couple of occasions anyway.


Thanks. I was initially going to get a bunch of mixed once fired brass, but I now figure I really should grab a heap of the same brand for the reason you mention

Disco stu yes keep one brand of brass as you can see in this pic on the left is norma brass absolute rubbish if you want to run it in a 7mm Remington Magnum on the right is just a elcheapo Winchester case same Calibre far Superior Brass even though the case capacity on the Norma was more if you look in the bottom corners of the head there is no brass supporting just forward of the belt with causes it to expand excessively in this area and cause extraction problems you go mixing brass up different brands they all have different capacities which will differing point of impact.

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Re: Monitoring for excess pressure-case head expansion best?

Post by bladeracer » 09 Sep 2021, 3:10 pm

disco stu wrote:
northdude wrote:every one has their own ideas something I have found is some calibers be a little bit more tolerant of pressure. Also if you change the brand of brass that can sometimes cause pressure signs as the internal capacity of the case can be slightly different thats what ive found on a couple of occasions anyway.


Thanks. I was initially going to get a bunch of mixed once fired brass, but I now figure I really should grab a heap of the same brand for the reason you mention


As long as you get a decent amount, for a good price, you should be able to sort a few good-size batches out of the mess. I bought something like 450 pieces of once-fired .223, and found a good amount of ADI .223 for example. There was also quite a lot of .5.56 and foreign stuff you wouldn't find in Oz, and some of it had obviously been reloaded and re-sized. I think there were seventeen different head stamps in the mix.

But I prefer to start with new brass, it's not too expensive, and if you don't push the pressures it will likely last longer than you do, so it's not an ongoing expense. I don't consider brass to be a "consumable" like powders, primers and bullets.
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Re: Monitoring for excess pressure-case head expansion best?

Post by northdude » 09 Sep 2021, 3:54 pm

plus if your loading for accuracy Ive found that with all the calibers I load for bar one you dont get to a max load..
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Re: Monitoring for excess pressure-case head expansion best?

Post by bladeracer » 09 Sep 2021, 4:03 pm

northdude wrote:plus if your loading for accuracy Ive found that with all the calibers I load for bar one you dont get to a max load..


Agreed. The .204 is the only one I have that off the top of mind head just shoots better the harder you push it. My 24gn load is 30gn of AR2206H, which is heaped above the case mouth. Still zero pressure signs.
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Re: Monitoring for excess pressure-case head expansion best?

Post by Oldbloke » 09 Sep 2021, 4:05 pm

northdude wrote:plus if your loading for accuracy Ive found that with all the calibers I load for bar one you dont get to a max load..


3 centerfires here. Out of about 6 or 7 different loads & only 1 was about max. That one was very accurate load too. But alas win760 is no longer available. All the rest pretty mild.
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Re: Monitoring for excess pressure-case head expansion best?

Post by disco stu » 09 Sep 2021, 4:40 pm

Any particular brands of brass to avoid? I did find 100 once fired winchester 308 cases for $20. I'm thinking I might jump on that one
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Re: Monitoring for excess pressure-case head expansion best?

Post by northdude » 09 Sep 2021, 4:57 pm

it should be ok brass brass is like everything else people have their favorites. Me I'm not made of money so I use the cheaper stuff not sure what you guys have over there I've had a good run out of highland s&b ppu pmc i find the primer pockets a bit tight in federal brass and hornady seems to give me a lot of head separations in the 22 hornet and more than average neck splits in the grendel.I use win brass in my 308.. if its once fired brass fl size it and check the length sometimes it more than once fired.Also just check to make sure the brass isn't military brass as you'll break you decapping pin trying to de prime them
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Re: Monitoring for excess pressure-case head expansion best?

Post by Bugman » 09 Sep 2021, 5:08 pm

Must admit that I only use Sako, Norma or Lapua brass for my centrefire rifles. They seem to last the distance with a bit of care. Just my opinion.
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Re: Monitoring for excess pressure-case head expansion best?

Post by bladeracer » 09 Sep 2021, 5:56 pm

disco stu wrote:Any particular brands of brass to avoid? I did find 100 once fired winchester 308 cases for $20. I'm thinking I might jump on that one


With anything that might be made on military production lines (9mm, .223, .308 and others) you might find once-fired has been primer crimped by the factory, which means you'll have to remove the crimp to be able to install new primers. More annoying than deal-breaking, but good to be aware of. Places like Federal are continually churning out military ammo and it's not worth changing the setup when they switch to push some civilian stuff through.

Otherwise, the only stuff I've had problems with is new Winchester brass, once-fired brass is fine, their new stuff has very hard necks that can benefit by being annealed again before using it.
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Re: Monitoring for excess pressure-case head expansion best?

Post by disco stu » 09 Sep 2021, 6:14 pm

Thanks all. This stuff looks to be from NRAA rounds, so I'm assuming non crimped. I'll grab some and give it a go I think
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Re: Monitoring for excess pressure-case head expansion best?

Post by northdude » 09 Sep 2021, 6:19 pm

see if you can feel how many flash holes it has the mil stuff over here has 2
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Re: Monitoring for excess pressure-case head expansion best?

Post by bladeracer » 09 Sep 2021, 6:29 pm

northdude wrote:see if you can feel how many flash holes it has the mil stuff over here has 2


Surely not the modern stuff?
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