4570 cast problem

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4570 cast problem

Post by Blr243 » 20 Oct 2021, 1:48 pm

I loaded up oodles of home cast soft 405 grainers with some red dot velocity wise they probably sit somewhere between subsonic and trapdoor speeds. While sighting them in on cape York they were woeful and patterned worse than a shotgun. They are unusable. They are not sized. They straight from the mould 458/459. I don’t know what type of rifling my 1895 has. Post hunt Initial research indicates that Too soft a pill does not Grip the rifling properly and stabilise ..I had reloading Equipment with me up the cape so I loaded up some commercial Hard cast powder coated 300 grainers. They shot very well. .......I also have some high velocity loads with the same home made soft 405 pill that I have not yet tried. Will these spin faster and stabilise my 405 grain pillls therefore getting me good hunting accuracy ? I have not slugged my bore. I think I crimped all my loads. It would b a bugger if I had to pull them all
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Re: 4570 cast problem

Post by bladeracer » 20 Oct 2021, 3:27 pm

Were the bullets tumbling?
What diameter were they before you loaded them?
If you pull one apart now what diameter is the bullet?
Sometimes seating soft lead bullets can under-size them if the case mouth is not flared enough.
Can you shoot some into something you can recover them from to see if the rifling is cleanly defined?
Can you chronograph them?
I think the problem is most likely that the bullets are under-size.


Blr243 wrote:I loaded up oodles of home cast soft 405 grainers with some red dot velocity wise they probably sit somewhere between subsonic and trapdoor speeds. While sighting them in on cape York they were woeful and patterned worse than a shotgun. They are unusable. They are not sized. They straight from the mould 458/459. I don’t know what type of rifling my 1895 has. Post hunt Initial research indicates that Too soft a pill does not Grip the rifling properly and stabilise ..I had reloading Equipment with me up the cape so I loaded up some commercial Hard cast powder coated 300 grainers. They shot very well. .......I also have some high velocity loads with the same home made soft 405 pill that I have not yet tried. Will these spin faster and stabilise my 405 grain pillls therefore getting me good hunting accuracy ? I have not slugged my bore. I think I crimped all my loads. It would b a bugger if I had to pull them all
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Re: 4570 cast problem

Post by Blr243 » 20 Oct 2021, 6:33 pm

I def flare enough to prevent shaving / reducing. Unfortunately none hit my paper target so I can’t say if they were tumbling but when at only 50 m I got Bullets goin two feet to the left and some two feet to the right something is def terribly wrong. I’ll try to get to a range or to my fathers farm so I can at least determine if they are tumbling thru a paper target
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Re: 4570 cast problem

Post by bladeracer » 20 Oct 2021, 6:58 pm

Blr243 wrote:I def flare enough to prevent shaving / reducing. Unfortunately none hit my paper target so I can’t say if they were tumbling but when at only 50 m I got Bullets goin two feet to the left and some two feet to the right something is def terribly wrong. I’ll try to get to a range or to my fathers farm so I can at least determine if they are tumbling thru a paper target


Not so much about shaving lead off the bullet, more about squeezing a soft bullet into a tight brass case, and then giving it a tight crimp, lead is a lot softer than brass - this can reduce the diameter of a soft bullet enough to cause trouble.

I've had similar results testing bullets that were undersize, not able to hit a 900mm wide panel at 50m. But I have occasionally had tumbling bullets that still shoot remarkably "accurately" at close range, say into 200mm at 50m.

I would pull one down and measure the seated bullet diameter, and push an over-size one through your barrel (well lubed) to determine the size you need. .458" or even .459" is sounding too small to me for a .458" bore with soft lead. Try .460" up to .462" if they'll chamber.

If you can recover some bullets you can look at the engraving to see if the rifling is cut cleanly or deformed by gas cutting or pushing through the rifling. I doubt they'd be pushing through if they're only around subsonic so I think size is the problem. I don't think it'd be possible to cast a 405gn bullet that would be too long to stabilise so that's not likely. Is it a really big hollow-point perhaps?
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Re: 4570 cast problem

Post by LawrenceA » 20 Oct 2021, 6:58 pm

That is woeful.
The bullet needs to be a couple of thou larger than the throat.
What size is the throat?
Was there much leading?
Leading will indicate blowby which in turn means the bullet is too small.
Do the bullets actually drop at 458/9? Most molds don't.
Can you powder coat them? That will size them up a little.
Failing that, give them a good crimp to allow a little more pressure to build and maybe help upset the bullet.

Move closer and see what happens. As Balderacer asked. Are they tumbling?
One well placed shot is all it takes.
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Re: 4570 cast problem

Post by Oldbloke » 20 Oct 2021, 8:27 pm

I assume its a micro groove marlin.

Larger and harder. Just like you want your dick. It will shoot. Lol
Gas checks help

Slug the bore as blade suggested.


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Re: 4570 cast problem

Post by Blr243 » 20 Oct 2021, 9:47 pm

Good info. I can see a result down the track. I’m aware of sizeing them down but I don’t know how to make them bigger. They are straight from the mould at 458/459. Sounds like powder coating mitght be the go. Is there a brand or type of powder more suitable to thickening up my bullets. ? I’m a touch nervous about altering my mould to throw larger diameter Bullets
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Re: 4570 cast problem

Post by boingk » 20 Oct 2021, 11:14 pm

Go larger diameter. Plenty of the 1895s like larger pills, apparently. Also make sure you are water quenching your projectiles out of the mould so they get a few free points of hardness.

My rifle like 460ish projectiles, anything less spins sideways coming out of the barrel about 25m - thumb sized sideways impacts haha.

You can use one of the cast projectiles mounted on a spindle to enlarge the mould - roll it on a file to rough the bearing surfaces you want to enlarge, put grit compound on it, spin in the mould cavity.

Or you could try paper patching the projectiles ;D
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Re: 4570 cast problem

Post by bigpete » 21 Oct 2021, 10:45 am

Cherry the mold to make them bigger
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Re: 4570 cast problem

Post by bladeracer » 21 Oct 2021, 1:30 pm

boingk wrote:Go larger diameter. Plenty of the 1895s like larger pills, apparently. Also make sure you are water quenching your projectiles out of the mould so they get a few free points of hardness.

My rifle like 460ish projectiles, anything less spins sideways coming out of the barrel about 25m - thumb sized sideways impacts haha.

You can use one of the cast projectiles mounted on a spindle to enlarge the mould - roll it on a file to rough the bearing surfaces you want to enlarge, put grit compound on it, spin in the mould cavity.

Or you could try paper patching the projectiles ;D


If you are making soft bullets from pure lead, quenching them won't have any effect (I learned that from this very forum some years ago) and defeats the purpose of casting them soft.
Paper-patching requires casting the bullets significantly under-size.
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Re: 4570 cast problem

Post by LawrenceA » 21 Oct 2021, 5:30 pm

Blr243 wrote:Good info. I can see a result down the track. I’m aware of sizeing them down but I don’t know how to make them bigger. They are straight from the mould at 458/459. Sounds like powder coating mitght be the go. Is there a brand or type of powder more suitable to thickening up my bullets. ? I’m a touch nervous about altering my mould to throw larger diameter Bullets

Dont be
There is a cheats wat to make them a tad bigger.
Put a foil shim on each side and it will make them a tad oval but wider.
I can't tell you which powder to use. Just get a cupful from whatever powder coating place you have around and do the Shake and Bake.
One well placed shot is all it takes.
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Re: 4570 cast problem

Post by gunnnie » 25 Oct 2021, 7:58 pm

The moulds I have throw either .458" or .460". One at 360-375gn depending on lead mix & the other at 500gn.
I'm currently running either one in my Pedersoli 1885 HiWall 45-70. Powder used is AR2207 at charges that vary but aren't warm at all.
I'm yet to do much with pc'ed cast for my Marlin 1895 45-70 as I still have a fair stock of 350gn Taipan PPT jacketed projos.
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