Bushing Dies

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Bushing Dies

Post by Baldrick314 » 16 Apr 2014, 11:14 am

After reading a few books about the higher end operations of handloading I was convinced I needed to immediately buy a Redding Type S die if I wanted the best accuracy but after reading a few forums most people are saying they got the best results in terms of consistency, concentricity and accuracy from Lee collet dies which I already use.

So anyone use anyone use bushing Dies? And are they worth the extra money?

I'm using a factory barrelled remington 700 if that factors into the equation at all
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Re: Bushing Dies

Post by Chronos » 16 Apr 2014, 12:29 pm

I use redding comp bushing dies to reload for my .284W

The major advantages with such a die is you can fine tune neck tension to the smallest margin and you don't overwork the necks. Also the case is generally pretty concentric then it comes out of a chamber but its poorly fitting dies and sloppy presses that induce bad concentricity in a loaded round (where the bullet is loaded not pointing directly down the bore) done loaders even jam bullets to help concentricity) concentricity gauges are available to check necks and loaded rounds

The down side is you will need to at the very least 50% skim turn the necks to ensure the neck thickness is fairly even.

Because the bushing pushes the neck in to say .001-.002" below caliber there is no need for an internal sizing button therefor the internal neck diameter (and the tension gripping the bullet) is set by the outside neck diameter making accurate neck thickness uniformity important.

In a no turn neck chamber what I do is to run a couple of cases through my f/l sizing die, trim to length, neck turn more than 50% clean up the necks, usually around 70% then seat a bulket with the base in the neck (bullets like the Bergers I use have a pressure ring that's bigger than the rest of the parallel section)

Then I measure the neck diameter of the loaded round. Say its .319" in my 7mm. Then I buy a neck bushing .003" smaller than that, a .316"

This allows me to skim another thou or so off the necks and tune the tension on the bullet to around 1 or 2 thou in a single shot target gun, probably more for a magazine fed gun

In my other target gun I'm using Wilson straight line dies and an arbor press. Much the same neck bushing system but they produce better loaded round concentricity.

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Re: Bushing Dies

Post by Baldrick314 » 16 Apr 2014, 12:41 pm

I currently neck turn to make my case necks consistent thickness and I use a Hornady concentricity gauge and all my rounds come in at or under a thou run out so I'm beginning to think there may not be any advantage to buying new dies
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Re: Bushing Dies

Post by Hatter » 16 Apr 2014, 9:24 pm

If you're already turning your necks, you're probably already addressing the neck tension more than the die will?
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Re: Bushing Dies

Post by grainweight » 16 Apr 2014, 9:24 pm

What are bushing dies compared to normal dies?

Soz, newb here...
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Re: Bushing Dies

Post by Lorgar » 17 Apr 2014, 2:19 pm

Everything in a regular die is fixed.

It sizes the brass to its one size and that's it.

Bushing dies have different size bushings which you can change to adjust the neck size and tension. I think most of them come in .001" increments so you can finely tune your necks as desired.
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Re: Bushing Dies

Post by Tiiger » 17 Apr 2014, 2:21 pm

From the Redding website for you grainweight...

The new Type S - Bushing Style Neck Sizing Die provides reloaders with a simple means to precisely control case neck size and tension.
  • Uses interchangeable sizing bushings available in .001" increments.
  • The adjustable decapping rod allows positioning the bushing to resize only a portion of the neck length if desired.
  • Concentricity is enhanced by the ability of the resizing bushing to selfcenter
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Re: Bushing Dies

Post by grainweight » 17 Apr 2014, 2:22 pm

I see. Thanks guys.
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Re: Bushing Dies

Post by Streamline » 17 Apr 2014, 2:23 pm

Concentricity is enhanced by the ability of the resizing bushing to selfcenter


That's handy, especially if you're necking up brass.
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Re: Bushing Dies

Post by Chronos » 17 Apr 2014, 3:13 pm

Hatter wrote:If you're already turning your necks, you're probably already addressing the neck tension more than the die will?


Not really because the neck tension in a regular die is set by the size of the size of the internal sizing button on the decapping pin. You might be able to precision grind this smaller and increase neck tension but you cannot increase its diameter to reduce neck tension

You're really talking about the final stage of tuning if you're playing with neck tension. Most competition shooters I've spoken to simply set neck tension at the start of case prep (neck turning) and that's that. Often there are considerations of neck thickness due to chamber size though which effects bushing size.

Like any if this stuff it's something that will only gain you small improvements. You redoing it to remove the 1 in 10 or 1 in 20 round flyer, not to halve your group size.

If you're concentricity is already good you might stick with your existing setup, but what are your groups like? There might be a more economical way to reduce group size

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Re: Bushing Dies

Post by Baldrick314 » 17 Apr 2014, 5:40 pm

I shoot half MOA pretty consistently with this rifle. I'm just trying to wring every last ounce of accuracy out of it. It's more of just an interest project than for any real goal.

I'm already neck turning, uniforming flash holes and batching bullets by weight. My next thought other than the bushing die was to start batching cases by weight. Any other recommendations?
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Re: Bushing Dies

Post by Hatter » 18 Apr 2014, 10:23 am

Chronos wrote:Not really because the neck tension in a regular die is set by the size of the size of the internal sizing button on the decapping pin. You might be able to precision grind this smaller and increase neck tension but you cannot increase its diameter to reduce neck tension.


I'm not really getting why it should matter if its done from inside with the decapping pin or the outside with the body of the die...

If you're turned the neck and know it's consistent, whether you size it from the inside or outside, it will still be consistent either way?

Neck tension might be different if size from the inside or outside, but as long as you do it with the same die each time tension will be consistent...?
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Re: Bushing Dies

Post by Baldrick314 » 18 Apr 2014, 10:31 am

Hatter wrote:I'm not really getting why it should matter if its done from inside with the decapping pin or the outside with the body of the die...

If you're turned the neck and know it's consistent, whether you size it from the inside or outside, it will still be consistent either way?

Neck tension might be different if size from the inside or outside, but as long as you do it with the same die each time tension will be consistent...?


Tension will be consistent either way but you have control over the exact amount of tension with a bushing die. Plus normal dies that use an expander overwork the case neck because it brings it in too small and then overexpands it to the nominal calibre size. A bushing die just squeezes the neck down to the size of the bushing
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Re: Bushing Dies

Post by Hatter » 18 Apr 2014, 6:10 pm

Ah right, I'm with you.

I was just looking at it from the angle of consistent tension. Not controlling it to an exact point.
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Re: Bushing Dies

Post by Apollo » 18 Apr 2014, 11:07 pm

I don't know about all Bushing Dies but the ones I use (Wilson In-Line) only size part of the neck length. Hence they work the neck material the least amount required to seat a bullet with a very precise and consistant neck tension.

Wilson Bushings are also different in that they are tapered and not a straight consistant internal diameter.

If you do not anneal cartridge cases then bushing dies are the best way to get the most accurate long term life out of you cases by working the brass the least amount to achieve your objective.

As stated earlier, normal dies, even just neck dies work the case necks too much in comparison.
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Re: Bushing Dies

Post by ailar » 21 Apr 2014, 11:03 am

So the necks are tighter at the top of the neck than the bottom are they?

Is that right?
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Re: Bushing Dies

Post by Klem » 21 Apr 2014, 11:07 am

The die sized from the top down (duh), so the top is sized while the bottom of the neck remains unchanged from firing.

Just FYI I've read of guys doing partial neck sizing by using a washer too, and dropping it over the neck too. However thick the washer is, is how much neck goes unsized. Not something I've done but there you go.
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Re: Bushing Dies

Post by chacho » 21 Apr 2014, 11:08 am

Pfft, screw that.

Buy a new die for $40. Sif bother with putting washers on and off for all your brass.
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Re: Bushing Dies

Post by harlow » 21 Apr 2014, 11:12 am

Apollo wrote:Hence they work the neck material the least amount required to seat a bullet with a very precise and consistant neck tension.


Surely it's just as "precise and consistent" to size the whole neck though?

There would be more tension as the whole neck is sized and gripping the bullet, but there isn't any reason it should be inconsistent?
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Re: Bushing Dies

Post by harlow » 21 Apr 2014, 11:13 am

Or are you doing partial neck sizing mostly to not overly work the brass?
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