60% 2206H load ballistics

Reloading equipment, methods, load data, powder and projectile information.

Re: 60% 2206H load ballistics

Post by Larry » 26 Nov 2021, 3:00 pm

There is more to the equation than just a fast powder re 2206H say Vs 2207. It is also about (not sure of the correct term) combustability. How readily and easily all the powder burns form kernel to kernel.
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Re: 60% 2206H load ballistics

Post by bladeracer » 26 Nov 2021, 4:49 pm

Larry wrote:There is more to the equation than just a fast powder re 2206H say Vs 2207. It is also about (not sure of the correct term) combustability. How readily and easily all the powder burns form kernel to kernel.


Yep, which is why ADI recommend AR2206H over AR2207 for reduced loads.
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Re: 60% 2206H load ballistics

Post by bladeracer » 26 Nov 2021, 5:19 pm

in2anity wrote:
bladeracer wrote:I would certainly give a try if you think it might improve your ammo.

You reckon it would be safe? Check this thread out I created over at the F-brigade: https://www.ozfclass.com/phpbb/viewtopi ... =5&t=13542 plenty of nay-sayers.


You're not looking to go subsonic are you?
Does Quickload say it's unsafe?
Have you emailed ADI?

I don't have time to read that whole thread just now, but I would've expected anybody shooting F-Class to understand that load data gives you starting loads, not minimum loads.

How low are you looking to go with these loads?
We're talking 168gn jacketed bullets in .308 right?
A quick look at ADI data shows that they only recommend AR2207 behind light bullets. Which would indicate the powder is not efficient pushing heavier bullets. Perhaps Quickload isn't as useful as some people believe it is.

What is the reason for wanting reduced loads, noise, recoil, wear and tear? You don't have to reduce the load very far to achieve all three of those points, rarely below most starting data.
And what is the reason you want to use AR2207 instead of AR2206H?
Personally I consider AR2206H to be immensely versatile, so I'd stick with it if you have it.
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Re: 60% 2206H load ballistics

Post by in2anity » 26 Nov 2021, 10:08 pm

Larry wrote:There is more to the equation than just a fast powder re 2206H say Vs 2207. It is also about (not sure of the correct term) combustability. How readily and easily all the powder burns form kernel to kernel.

Is it just finer kernels when comparing say 07 with say 06H?
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Re: 60% 2206H load ballistics

Post by Oldbloke » 27 Nov 2021, 9:25 am

I think these are the main burning rate variables. But there could be more.

Composition
Coatings
Shape (also effects surface area)
Size
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Re: 60% 2206H load ballistics

Post by in2anity » 27 Nov 2021, 9:57 am

bladeracer wrote:What is the reason for wanting reduced loads, noise, recoil, wear and tear? You don't have to reduce the load very far to achieve all three of those points, rarely below most starting data.
And what is the reason you want to use AR2207 instead of AR2206H?
Personally I consider AR2206H to be immensely versatile, so I'd stick with it if you have it.


It’s all trade offs Blade. Recoil is your enemy in competition SR, particularly when including quick fire events, such as snap shooting (with limited exposure times). Lower recoil allows you to settle your sights faster, for faster follow up shots. The 5.56mm is inherently easier in this regard, compared with say 7.62. But the 5.56mm is also more susceptible to fishy windage, at longer ranges. Swings and roundabouts. One constant however, is that reducing recoil as much as is convenient (whilst still being capable enough for longer distance) is advantageous. You may think such finer details are OTT but with comp shooting, it’s all the little perks that add up to achieve a winning overall result.
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Re: 60% 2206H load ballistics

Post by bladeracer » 27 Nov 2021, 11:24 am

in2anity wrote:
bladeracer wrote:What is the reason for wanting reduced loads, noise, recoil, wear and tear? You don't have to reduce the load very far to achieve all three of those points, rarely below most starting data.
And what is the reason you want to use AR2207 instead of AR2206H?
Personally I consider AR2206H to be immensely versatile, so I'd stick with it if you have it.


It’s all trade offs Blade. Recoil is your enemy in competition SR, particularly when including quick fire events, such as snap shooting (with limited exposure times). Lower recoil allows you to settle your sights faster, for faster follow up shots. The 5.56mm is inherently easier in this regard, compared with say 7.62. But the 5.56mm is also more susceptible to fishy windage, at longer ranges. Swings and roundabouts. One constant however, is that reducing recoil as much as is convenient (whilst still being capable enough for longer distance) is advantageous. You may think such finer details are OTT but with comp shooting, it’s all the little perks that add up to achieve a winning overall result.


Okay, I understand that :-)
But I thought Service rifle actually requires ammunition with recoil to simulate service use? Something like at least 75% of the energy of service ammo? I know Combined Services prefer full power ammo as I was reading about it earlier this week.

Actually, I still have the Combined Services Rulebook open on my phone :-)
It says 75% of published military cartridge energy minimum - Section 3.4.3.
Is there a Service rifle rulebook?
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Re: 60% 2206H load ballistics

Post by in2anity » 27 Nov 2021, 3:10 pm

bladeracer wrote:
Okay, I understand that :-)
But I thought Service rifle actually requires ammunition with recoil to simulate service use? Something like at least 75% of the energy of service ammo? I know Combined Services prefer full power ammo as I was reading about it earlier this week.

Actually, I still have the Combined Services Rulebook open on my phone :-)
It says 75% of published military cartridge energy minimum - Section 3.4.3.
Is there a Service rifle rulebook?


That maybe so - but how do they possibly govern that? I’ve never heard of anyone being disqualified for “using too little powder”, even under CSD. Indeed you need to run the same ammo for an entire competition, but outside of that, it’s just not something that gets regulated. Besides, I’d say I’d always be in compliance with that 75% rule. I reckon that’s about where I’d sit, for my 7.62 carbine - probs 75% full-power. Any less and you’d lose too much velocity. Meanwhile ofc I run my 5.56 hot, to better buck the wind.
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Re: 60% 2206H load ballistics

Post by bladeracer » 27 Nov 2021, 6:12 pm

in2anity wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
Okay, I understand that :-)
But I thought Service rifle actually requires ammunition with recoil to simulate service use? Something like at least 75% of the energy of service ammo? I know Combined Services prefer full power ammo as I was reading about it earlier this week.

Actually, I still have the Combined Services Rulebook open on my phone :-)
It says 75% of published military cartridge energy minimum - Section 3.4.3.
Is there a Service rifle rulebook?


That maybe so - but how do they possibly govern that? I’ve never heard of anyone being disqualified for “using too little powder”, even under CSD. Indeed you need to run the same ammo for an entire competition, but outside of that, it’s just not something that gets regulated. Besides, I’d say I’d always be in compliance with that 75% rule. I reckon that’s about where I’d sit, for my 7.62 carbine - probs 75% full-power. Any less and you’d lose too much velocity. Meanwhile ofc I run my 5.56 hot, to better buck the wind.


It depends on which military load you refer to (surely this rifle wasn't in 7.62x51mm while it was in service?), but 75% of the energy (around 2560lb-ft with M80 in rifles) with a 168gn hullet is going to need around 2270fps, which I'm not sure you'd be making on a 62% charge.

I guess it's an honour system, your fellow competitors trust you not to cheat. There's no satisfaction in getting higher scores than your mates if you're doing it with less recoil than them. If you are going to push that close to the limit I would invest in a chronograph to ensure you are still within the rules.

I guess carbines don't need to make rifle-length energy levels though. From what I can find, the military expects 147gn M80 to make about 2675fps out of 16.5" carbines, for about 2335lb-ft of muzzle energy. 75% being 1750lb-ft. About 2515fps with a 125gn bullet, or 2165fps with a 158gn bullet. Can Quickload calculate your minimum charges to make those velocities in a 16.5" barrel?
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Re: 60% 2206H load ballistics

Post by Tubs » 04 Dec 2021, 6:45 am

bladeracer wrote:
in2anity wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
Okay, I understand that :-)
But I thought Service rifle actually requires ammunition with recoil to simulate service use? Something like at least 75% of the energy of service ammo? I know Combined Services prefer full power ammo as I was reading about it earlier this week.

Actually, I still have the Combined Services Rulebook open on my phone :-)
It says 75% of published military cartridge energy minimum - Section 3.4.3.
Is there a Service rifle rulebook?


That maybe so - but how do they possibly govern that? I’ve never heard of anyone being disqualified for “using too little powder”, even under CSD. Indeed you need to run the same ammo for an entire competition, but outside of that, it’s just not something that gets regulated. Besides, I’d say I’d always be in compliance with that 75% rule. I reckon that’s about where I’d sit, for my 7.62 carbine - probs 75% full-power. Any less and you’d lose too much velocity. Meanwhile ofc I run my 5.56 hot, to better buck the wind.


It depends on which military load you refer to (surely this rifle wasn't in 7.62x51mm while it was in service?), but 75% of the energy (around 2560lb-ft with M80 in rifles) with a 168gn hullet is going to need around 2270fps, which I'm not sure you'd be making on a 62% charge.

I guess it's an honour system, your fellow competitors trust you not to cheat. There's no satisfaction in getting higher scores than your mates if you're doing it with less recoil than them. If you are going to push that close to the limit I would invest in a chronograph to ensure you are still within the rules.

I guess carbines don't need to make rifle-length energy levels though. From what I can find, the military expects 147gn M80 to make about 2675fps out of 16.5" carbines, for about 2335lb-ft of muzzle energy. 75% being 1750lb-ft. About 2515fps with a 125gn bullet, or 2165fps with a 158gn bullet. Can Quickload calculate your minimum charges to make those velocities in a 16.5" barrel?


Hey Blade, my experiment worked, both round shot like laser beams at 100 yards, with virtually no recoil. Ive gotta buy a chrono next. Much easier to sight in a scope with a wus load :lol:

Threw a few full power loads into the mix but nowhere as accurate. Maybe it is me?
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Re: 60% 2206H load ballistics

Post by bladeracer » 04 Dec 2021, 2:04 pm

Tubs wrote:Hey Blade, my experiment worked, both round shot like laser beams at 100 yards, with virtually no recoil. Ive gotta buy a chrono next. Much easier to sight in a scope with a wus load :lol:

Threw a few full power loads into the mix but nowhere as accurate. Maybe it is me?


Perhaps you weren't prepared for the recoil after the reduced loads?
When my shoulder is giving me trouble, I occasionally develop a temporary flinch after my first full-noise round of 7.62x54R, 8x57mm, .30-06, or even .44 Magnum if I haven't remembered that I'm about to shoot it after thousands of rounds of .22LR. When I pick up a 12ga I know it's going to hurt already :-)

I have to remember to load some extra rounds if I'm doing load development to acclimatise myself to it before shooting groups, or those first shots are likely to be irrelevant to the test.
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Re: 60% 2206H load ballistics

Post by in2anity » 06 Dec 2021, 10:13 am

always worthwhile taking a snap cap with you - time permitting, i warm up on the snap before switching to the real deal. TR shooting you really gotta warm-up into the zone to be hitting a perfect string of 5s; dry firing with the snap first might be part of your warmup/preperation.

A good SR shooter I know always pushes that training with dummies mixed in with the real stuff is the perfect way to highlight your flinch; even an experienced shooter can quickly develop a flinch, subjected to enough recoil...

Here is a master grader developing a flinch https://youtu.be/LnI1CE3O7gs - watch very closely at 1min. He even jokes about the developing flinch later on.
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Re: 60% 2206H load ballistics

Post by bladeracer » 06 Dec 2021, 12:38 pm

in2anity wrote:always worthwhile taking a snap cap with you - time permitting, i warm up on the snap before switching to the real deal. TR shooting you really gotta warm-up into the zone to be hitting a perfect string of 5s; dry firing with the snap first might be part of your warmup/preperation.

A good SR shooter I know always pushes that training with dummies mixed in with the real stuff is the perfect way to highlight your flinch; even an experienced shooter can quickly develop a flinch, subjected to enough recoil...

Here is a master grader developing a flinch https://youtu.be/LnI1CE3O7gs - watch very closely at 1min. He even jokes about the developing flinch later on.


The snap cap might be a good idea just to warm up the muscles and get a feel for the trigger, but it doesn't acclimatise you to the recoil, you need to actually fire a few rounds for that I think, before settling down to the scoring shots.

I agree with throwing in an occasional dummy round when practicing, it can really exaggerate any flinch that may be creeping in.

Do these competitions allow you to spend some time shooting before they start scoring? When I was doing IPSC we always kept a spare live range where anybody could do some informal practice to warm up or check function at any time during the day, but I suspect nowadays you're probably not allowed to even load a firearm unless there's an RO watching over you? If I found I wasn't in the zone, I'd wander off and run a mag or two through the gun on my own to settle down, then go back and join the squad.
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Re: 60% 2206H load ballistics

Post by in2anity » 06 Dec 2021, 12:44 pm

bladeracer wrote:The snap cap might be a good idea just to warm up the muscles and get a feel for the trigger, but it doesn't acclimatise you to the recoil, you need to actually fire a few rounds for that I think, before settling down to the scoring shots.

I agree with throwing in an occasional dummy round when practicing, it can really exaggerate any flinch that may be creeping in.


TR or F you usually get a 10 minute window to shoot your 10 rounds, so you are certainly permitted to spend a little time "settling in" before you start sending-em. SR - for slow fire application, more or less same deal, no time limit. But that's only a small subset of SR comp - usually it's strictly timed, so you just have to dive right in.

Shooting a lower-recoiler, or dry firing is how you train any flinch away again. 22lr comps are great for this. We should all be shooting our 22lrs more :sarcasm: !
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Re: 60% 2206H load ballistics

Post by bladeracer » 06 Dec 2021, 1:32 pm

in2anity wrote:
bladeracer wrote:The snap cap might be a good idea just to warm up the muscles and get a feel for the trigger, but it doesn't acclimatise you to the recoil, you need to actually fire a few rounds for that I think, before settling down to the scoring shots.

I agree with throwing in an occasional dummy round when practicing, it can really exaggerate any flinch that may be creeping in.


TR or F you usually get a 10 minute window to shoot your 10 rounds, so you are certainly permitted to spend a little time "settling in" before you start sending-em. SR - for slow fire application, more or less same deal, no time limit. But that's only a small subset of SR comp - usually it's strictly timed, so you just have to dive right in.

Shooting a lower-recoiler, or dry firing is how you train any flinch away again. 22lr comps are great for this. We should all be shooting our 22lrs more :sarcasm: !



10rds in ten-minutes doesn't sound much like shooting to me, more like having a rest :-)
I'm never going to spend eight-hours on the road to shoot like that. How many rounds do you shoot on the day in total?
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Re: 60% 2206H load ballistics

Post by in2anity » 06 Dec 2021, 1:47 pm

bladeracer wrote:10rds in ten-minutes doesn't sound much like shooting to me, more like having a rest :-)
I'm never going to spend eight-hours on the road to shoot like that. How many rounds do you shoot on the day in total?


Hehe yes being close to a premier range sure has its perks ;) Grade shoots, usually entail 20+ rounds. Practice days you can shoot as much as you like, whilst still respecting any lane queue. TBH I actually enjoy the slower pace of TR - it's very zen compared with SR or even MS - SR is all over in only a few minutes. Quite different disciplines. A big shoot like a Queens will often see 40 rounds over two distances per day (so four details), multiplied by three days. Whatever floats your boat. These "run-and-gun" PRS style comps are a lot faster paced - more appealing to a younger crowd, I feel.
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