Reloading in SW Sydney

[Lsfan]

This is prompted by another thread regarding reloading 308 versus factory ammo.
I don't shoot that often, but if I choose to start reloading on the basis of economics, can someone suggest how I would get the best value? I'm in south west Sydney and only have a 223, but may also get something bigger in future. Eg. Should I buy all supplies from somewhere like abelas/ horsley park, Western firearms? Or would I buy powder only from them, order brass and primers online? I think for someone inexperienced like me, I could buy all the components at the wrong price and end up costing as much as factory ammo.
Also, is there a minimum number of rounds I should consider reloading to make it economical?
I look forward to the feedback.

[rc42]

If you don't shoot much then reloading will never really make financial sense, it is a great part of the hobby and the only way to get the most consistent ammunition tuned for your rifle. For higher volume shooters there's generally still no financial saving but you'll get to put more rounds downrange for the same cost.

Where you get the parts from doesn't really matter, check for used equipment as you'll save a lot and likely change to something different later anyway. Work out the up front cost of your equipment (press, dies, scales, cast prep tools, etc), then work out the cost per round if you buy primers, powder and projectiles separately, add in brass too initially if you don't have some or access to free range brass.

When you have startup cost plus cost per round (maybe for the first 1000 rounds) you'll be able to compare that with cost per round for factory ammo. Recalculate for 2000 rounds or maybe more to see where the point is that it becomes worthwhile and consider how many range visits and how many months or years that would be. The cost/benefit will be very specific to your usage patterns.

[Lsfan]

Thanks rc42. Yes looking at it that way, it would take years for me to recoup the costs. I can imagine there would be a sense of satisfaction in making your own ammo though. Otherwise it will probably never be logical for my situation.

[in2anity]

You can buy match grade projectiles that will group south of 1.5moa at 800m from qstore for 65c a pop. Primer 11c. Powder say 30c. Now tell me where you get such high grade ammo for a bit over a $1 a pop? This ammo can be made using the Lee hand press, Lee priming tool, Lee scales, Lee dies, for well south of $500. probs more like $250, including a bottle of AR2208 and some primers. When ammo is going for $2-$3, it won’t take long at all to recoup this money. It’s not rocket science.

[boingk]

Best deal out there is the Lee part number 90304 kit - a turret press with powder dispenser, no-touch priming system and scales. The whole thing works a treat.

Here's the link to my write-up about both it and reloading in general.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13875

I'd strongly advise it, it's a good thing to get into as it helps keep the passion alive when away from the range / field / trip etc. Hell, I cranked out 150x 223 round this evening while watching a movie.

I run a 55gn SuperRoo softpoint boat-tail projectile around 2900fps out of at 18" barrel using 24.5gn of 2206H. Nothign special. 8c/primer, 20c of powder, 18c projectile and you're at 46c/round. Not bad economy and a nicely shooting rounf in my rifle.

- boingk

[Lsfan]

OK now it's starting to make more sense

[bladeracer]

This is prompted by another thread regarding reloading 308 versus factory ammo.
I don't shoot that often, but if I choose to start reloading on the basis of economics, can someone suggest how I would get the best value? I'm in south west Sydney and only have a 223, but may also get something bigger in future. Eg. Should I buy all supplies from somewhere like abelas/ horsley park, Western firearms? Or would I buy powder only from them, order brass and primers online? I think for someone inexperienced like me, I could buy all the components at the wrong price and end up costing as much as factory ammo.
Also, is there a minimum number of rounds I should consider reloading to make it economical?
I look forward to the feedback.

First you need to decide how much ammo you want to shoot, and what it will cost to buy.

If it's a deer rifle you might only be shooting 20rds a year, maybe 50rds if you zero every time you go out. With a premium round you might be paying as much as $5 apiece for .308, so $100 to $250 a year, but there is much cheaper stuff. If you're into shooting tiny groups you might burn 50rds a month, at $3-5 a shot for match ammo - that's 600rds at $1800-3000 a year. If you're just enjoying plinking and field practice you might just use the cheapest bulk ammo and find 1000rds for $1500 to last a few years.

Even the low-count exotic deer ammo can be made significantly cheaper, but at $200 a year how long will it be until you recoup the outlay of reloading equipment? If you go for something exotic like a Barnes TTSX, Swift A-Frame, or an RWS bonded bullet, you might be paying $3 or more just for the bullet. But if you can make a conventional soft-point bullet work, like more than 99% percent of hunters do, you might find the Speer HotCor or Hornady SP for 50c apiece on special. You can make your ammo so much cheaper (perhaps a fifth of the price) that you can get out practicing more and not have to rely on an expensive bullet to make up for less than optimal bullet placement.

The cost of match-grade ammo makes loading your own obviously cheaper, especially because you shoot so much of it. The Lee Breechlock Challenger kit is $310, and you'll need some sort of caliper for measuring things. A die set runs from about $60 for the RGB to $120 for a four-die collect set. That is probably all you need to do the job, but you're likely to want other things as you learn, trim dies, digital scales, ammo boxes, etc.

Then you just need the components of the ammunition you want to make.
Powders are about $130 per kg for ADI, the 4kg is about $450 and will make about 1300rds of .308. If you are serious I'd suggest a 4kg bottle of AR2206H as it's very versatile, you can use it in virtually anything you're likely to load in the future. And with powder supply issues, 4kg is better on your shelf than in a gunshop where it might be gone when you need another kilo bottle. I keep a sealed 4kg and the one I'm using I dump into 500gm bottles for ease of use. Before I open the backup bottle I buy another to replace it.

Primers are an issue but there are still stocks around. Primers, ammo and powders you will have to buy from a local dealer, they can't be shipped. You'll have to ring around your locals to find what is available. Buying a case of 5000 primers does save you money, but might last you decades if you don't shoot that much.

Brass is pretty easy, either buy factory ammo and save the brass, buy somebody else's once-fired factory brass, or buy new brass. If for some reason you can't get .308 brass you can make it from other stuff, like .25-06, .270, .30-06, 7mm-08, 6.5mm Creedmoor, 6.5x55mm, .260Rem, 7x57mm, 8x57mm and anything based on those. But I'd be amazed if you can't find .308 brass. Reducing your pressures greatly increases case life. Dropping your velocity by just 250fps will reduce the pressure by about a quarter and your brass will probably last your lifetime.

Now, finding the bullet you want becomes the issue. Projectile Warehouse has good stock of Outer Edge bullets just now, but they're too expensive for my tastes. They, like most places, have very little in the way of conventional bullets. Some of the online sellers have good websites that track stock. I prowl through these fairly regularly to keep a feel for the supply situation. Dealers now generally have less stock of all components than some of us reloaders have. A big dealer I looked at last week had less than 3000 6.5mm bullets in stock (most were expensive Nosler match bullets), two others had less than 500 6.5mm bullets.

Sign up to all the shops and jump on the deals when they email them. Last week I scored some bullets I've been chasing for years via an email telling me stock had arrived, and at an awesome price - they arrived today.

Otherwise, you can look at casting your own bullets, which requires a mould for $50, a ladle for $15, some Lube for $15, and a gas torch to melt the lead in the ladle. If you or your friends do any .22LR plinking, recover the bullets to make free .309" bullets. Otherwise, Bunnings do rolls of lead sheet, a 9kg roll is $85 and will make 900 150gn bullets. But they're soft so you can't push them fast. Bunnings also do 60/40 stick solder for $50/kg. Add one-part of solder to nine-parts pure lead for a 6% alloy for bullets around 10BHN.

A simple way to get harder bullets is to buy Magnum hard shot, which is about $120/10kg bottle, enough for 1000 150gn bullets. Doing a 1-to-9 mix of this with 60/40 solder bumps the BHN up to around 15.

If you want even harder bullets the easiest way is to buy hardcast bullets on special and melt them down to make your own bullets.

If you want to push them even faster then you need to look at a cheap toaster oven and a bag of powdercoat.

Free brass, Trailboss powder charges, and casting your recovered .22LR bullets is about as cheap as you can shoot .308. You're paying for a primer and under ten-cents for powder, about 16-cents a shot. If you shoot a lot, even new brass at a buck apiece becomes "free" by the time you've loaded it fifty or a hundred times. It can be cheaper than shooting .22LR (I paid $980 for 5000rds of Eley Standard a few months ago, 19.6c per shot), and very likely just as accurate.

[Lsfan]

That's incredibly inciteful bladeracer. Thanks for taking the time to explain all that.
I feel that reloading is something I'll probably try in future just for the experience. I actually just go to ranges and not that frequently, but generally shoot 70 to 100 shots. Per year I reckon it will be around 500 so only a small number but i guess the potential to pay for the initial outlay for the reloading equipment.

[Oldbloke]

OK. You may not initially load a lot. So, cheap set up. Consider used gear. Ask around.

O press or a solid C press
Scale/beam
Lee RGB Die
Case holder
Scoops, diy
priming tool
Loading block, diy
Lee trimmer
Funnel
Bench/table/desk (fairly solid)

AR2208 or AR2206h
Primers
Hornady interlocks or Sleer hotcores
223 super roos
Buy in bulk when cheap.

Some info and links to manuals here.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13453

[in2anity]

If you genuinely shoot 500 per year you’ll pay off a cheap set of gear in a year. Have you seen ammo prices? It’s daylight robbery.

[straightshooter]

You can buy match grade projectiles that will group south of 1.5moa at 800m from qstore for 65c a pop. Primer 11c. Powder say 30c. Now tell me where you get such high grade ammo for a bit over a $1 a pop? This ammo can be made using the Lee hand press, Lee priming tool, Lee scales, Lee dies, for well south of $500. probs more like $250, including a bottle of AR2208 and some primers. When ammo is going for $2-$3, it won’t take long at all to recoup this money. It’s not rocket science.

There are other advantages not canvassed such as:
Being able to acquire and stock up components when the price is right and since they are not classed as ammunition they are not subject to the same storage rules.
Being able to prolong the useful accuracy life of your barrel by customising seating depth.
Not having to buy different brands, batches or types of ammo due to scarcity.

[Gamerancher]

Don't forget, the joy of giving your other half something else to whinge and bitch about every time you add to your ever expanding tooling/supplies,
"What do you need that for?"

[Oldbloke]

Easy to work out.


Here are some current costs (aprox) but not including delivery if needed. You can work it out from there.

223 cost.JPG (50.31 KiB) Viewed 3082 times

[Lsfan]

Don't forget, the joy of giving your other half something else to whinge and bitch about every time you add to your ever expanding tooling/supplies,
"What do you need that for?"

Very true.

[Lsfan]

OK. You may not initially load a lot. So, cheap set up. Consider used gear. Ask around.

O press or a solid C press
Scale/beam
Lee RGB Die
Case holder
Scoops, diy
priming tool
Loading block, diy
Lee trimmer
Funnel
Bench/table/desk (fairly solid)

AR2208 or AR2206h
Primers
Hornady interlocks or Sleer hotcores
223 super roos
Buy in bulk when cheap.

Some info and links to manuals here.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13453

Thanks OB. Isn't most of this covered in the Lee kits?
http://westernfirearms.com.au/reloading ... -1371.html

[Oldbloke]

Not certain Suggest you check. .

[pomemax]

What ever you decide on in the mean time KEEP all you shot brass .
I kid you not at the range one day young bloke threw out 99 once only fired Sako rounds I was slower than the range office getting to the bin .
This guy reloaded all the empty in the boxes before tossing .Makes no sense I asked the guy why he didn't keep them Oh i dont reload and only shoot that many Per month now I knew the range people that did reload watched him lol

[disco stu]

You'll need to add case length gage and shell holder to go with the lock stud and trimmer, under $20 from memory. Dies as mentioned, plus more breech lock bushings if you want to change them quickly, but not needed, around $10 each. Overall you would be most of the way there with that kit.

Abelas doesn't seem bad with pricing on a lot of stuff, worth checking their prices. Just don't bother with primers at the moment-they're now charging $20/100. Last time I was in what they had with primers was it for ages, yet they now have things they didn't then, and have increased prices even further. Loaded 22 is cheaper

[Lsfan]

What ever you decide on in the mean time KEEP all you shot brass .
I kid you not at the range one day young bloke threw out 99 once only fired Sako rounds I was slower than the range office getting to the bin .
This guy reloaded all the empty in the boxes before tossing .Makes no sense I asked the guy why he didn't keep them Oh i dont reload and only shoot that many Per month now I knew the range people that did reload watched him lol

Yes I did that once. A bloke asked if he could have mine and I said sure. Later I realised I had steel match ones anyway.

[Lsfan]

You'll need to add case length gage and shell holder to go with the lock stud and trimmer, under $20 from memory. Dies as mentioned, plus more breech lock bushings if you want to change them quickly, but not needed, around $10 each. Overall you would be most of the way there with that kit.

Abelas doesn't seem bad with pricing on a lot of stuff, worth checking their prices. Just don't bother with primers at the moment-they're now charging $20/100. Last time I was in what they had with primers was it for ages, yet they now have things they didn't then, and have increased prices even further. Loaded 22 is cheaper

Thanks stu. I've bought a few things from abelas. I think western firearms is a lesser known shop but has better pricing on accessories. Not sure if you've looked at the Anzac range shop. When stocked, their pricing seems quite cheap.

[boingk]

Hi mate, the Lee 90304 kit I referenced was about the $500 mark when I bought it. It's probably a bit more now although ebay shows under $600 all up including $50 freight.

It came with:

Cast turret press.
Safety prime system.
Autodrum powder dispensing system.
Lee safety powder scale (mechanical beam scales with magnetic dampening)
Lee reloading manual - huge volume of loading data in a physical bound hardcopy.
Case condition tools including cutter, lock stud, chamfer tool & primer pocket cleaners.
Also includes a tube of Lee case sizing lube.

Its a lotta gear for the money. I use mine with more than a few different calibres and its easy. Has been loading everything from 310 Cadet through 45-70 Govt for almost two years without so much as a flinch.

Here's a quick video from a youtube search that shows how the system works.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOpN9iYOyE8

[Gamerancher]

For someone new to reloading that's also not going to shoot thousands of rounds a year, a single stage press is really all that's needed. Lee "O-frame" kits with a cast press can be had for around the $300 mark. A set of dies for your cartridge and consumables and you're in business. I'll guarantee you won't wear one out. Don't over think it.

Western Firearms are still advertising this:
50th Anniversary Kit
Lee Precision Reloading
$289.00

[Oldbloke]

For someone new to reloading that's also not going to shoot thousands of rounds a year, a single stage press is really all that's needed. Lee "O-frame" kits with a cast press can be had for around the $300 mark. A set of dies for your cartridge and consumables and you're in business. I'll guarantee you won't wear one out. Don't over think it.

Western Firearms are still advertising this:
50th Anniversary Kit
Lee Precision Reloading
$289.00

Yep should get him started

[bladeracer]

For someone new to reloading that's also not going to shoot thousands of rounds a year, a single stage press is really all that's needed. Lee "O-frame" kits with a cast press can be had for around the $300 mark. A set of dies for your cartridge and consumables and you're in business. I'll guarantee you won't wear one out. Don't over think it.

Western Firearms are still advertising this:
50th Anniversary Kit
Lee Precision Reloading
$289.00

The main difference between the Anniversary and Challenger kits is the Challenger includes the Hand Priming tool. It can bought separately though.

[Oldbloke]

I always thought one of these would be OK


Check out “90106 Lee Ram Prime” from Lee Precision on Vimeo.

The video is available for your viewing pleasure at https://vimeo.com/181062620

If you like this video, make sure you share it, too!

[in2anity]

Those ram primes do the job - but they get loose after plenty of use and then the pin and spring falls out an you can lose it. I've had that happen the night before a match without any backup. Searched everywhere for the spring, but failed, and had to forgo the match because I didn't have enough loaded ammo. I then switched to the lee hand priming tool, which does the job but they are flimsy and broke for me after plenty of use. Had a couple break on me, so switched to the RCBS hand priming tool and never looked back - they are a step up in quality. I've heard many say the Frankford Arsenal is also a goodun.

[Oldbloke]

Those ram primes do the job - but they get loose after plenty of use and then the pin and spring falls out an you can lose it. I've had that happen the night before a match without any backup. Searched everywhere for the spring, but failed, and had to forgo the match because I didn't have enough loaded ammo. I then switched to the lee hand priming tool, which does the job but they are flimsy and broke for me after plenty of use. Had a couple break on me, so switched to the RCBS hand priming tool and never looked back - they are a step up in quality. I've heard many say the Frankford Arsenal is also a goodun.

LOL Nylon hammer and copper/brass/alloy punch works. LOL

I must have seated a few hundred that way

[in2anity]

LOL Nylon hammer and copper/brass/alloy punch works. LOL

I must have seated a few hundred that way

You are braver than I Ob!!

[bladeracer]

LOL Nylon hammer and copper/brass/alloy punch works. LOL

I must have seated a few hundred that way

You are braver than I Ob!!

As long as you install the primer first there's no bravery involved

[Lsfan]

Thanks for all the useful advice. Like someone said earlier, buying more stuff gets the wife asking questions like "what do you need that for!"
I reckon I'll Start with a $300 kit and then upgrade if something fails me.
It's funny how addictive it all is. I bought a 3 gun safe thinking that's all I'll ever want. Managed to get 4 guns in it and just recently bought another safe. Now contemplating reloading! What next? (Don't tell me)