How much difference do primers make to accuracy?

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How much difference do primers make to accuracy?

Post by horter » 27 Apr 2014, 11:51 am

Hi guys,

I'm wondering if I really stand to gain anything by tweaking the primers in my hunting loads.

I'm not shooting F-Class or anything like that of course. I mostly use my .222 and 30-06 and have loads worked up for both.

My 30-06 shoots just above 1 MOA groups and my .222 is a bit under that. That's enough for hunting but if I can tighten either of them up for fun punching paper and something to do it would be all right.

Say for the 30-06, and hunting ranges of 100m - 300m could a change in primer potentially .1MOA or more? Or less?

Or is it not really worth doing at all unless your talking serious competition stuff?

Cheers.
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Re: How much difference do primers make to accuracy?

Post by Chronos » 27 Apr 2014, 1:08 pm

I'd suggest telling us what primers you're currently using and what kind of load and how you arrived at that load

The wrong primer could create as many problems to the rest of your load development just like the wrong powder of bullet weight could imho

Looking at your sig line I see you're shooting a sako L461 in .222 and I see no reason why that gun shouldn't shoot .5 moa with the right load

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Re: How much difference do primers make to accuracy?

Post by Apollo » 27 Apr 2014, 1:30 pm

Don't know about the .30-06 calibre but the L461 Vixen in .222R should, with the right load combination shoot around the .5 moa if the shooters skills are up to the task.
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Re: How much difference do primers make to accuracy?

Post by horter » 27 Apr 2014, 1:43 pm

Hi guys,

I'm just using regular Federal 'large rifle' for the 30-06 and 'small rifle' for the .222.

Really I only started using them because that's what the store had, not for any specific reason. My .222 was a hand me down from the old man which I've started using more recently.

He also gave down his load data for the .222 which shoots about .8 MOA at the moment but TBH I don't think it was tested thoroughly. I reckon he just got a half decent load and stuck with it as it was enough.

Some tinkering with the rest of the load might be in order as well. If I can get it to .5 MOA that would be tops.

Matters less for the Ruger, but not so much chance for 0.5 MOA in that one hey?
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Re: How much difference do primers make to accuracy?

Post by Apollo » 27 Apr 2014, 6:53 pm

Tell us what combination you are using in the .222R. Bullet weight, type, powder, cases......
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Re: How much difference do primers make to accuracy?

Post by 5Tom » 28 Apr 2014, 10:49 am

I think some primers are better than others (of the same type) but the differences may not be noticeable if either primers are efficiently burning all the powder when detonated.

You could try deburring the flash hole inside your cases to get a more uniform detonation inside the case, which might help.
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Re: How much difference do primers make to accuracy?

Post by Lorgar » 28 Apr 2014, 10:57 am

I was lucky enough to be given the load data for my current rifle so haven't tested this myself, just passing the information along...

I have a semi-mate who works at my LGS and worked up the load including different primers. He has the same rifle.

I'm using CCI BR2 for my 7mm-08 which shoots sub 0.4MOA.

He tells me he also tried Federal Champion and they shot about 0.1 or 0.2 MOA larger groups than the CCI BR2 primers.

Haven't tested that myself but the guy's pretty good, so...
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Re: How much difference do primers make to accuracy?

Post by Lorgar » 28 Apr 2014, 10:58 am

I should add that's not to say there is anything wrong/bad about Federal Champion.

Just not the best option for my setup.
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Re: How much difference do primers make to accuracy?

Post by Old Fart » 28 Apr 2014, 10:58 am

Yep,

Cheap ammo can often shoot better than some of the premium options in the rifle rifle.
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Re: How much difference do primers make to accuracy?

Post by horter » 28 Apr 2014, 11:08 am

Apollo wrote:Tell us what combination you are using in the .222R. Bullet weight, type, powder, cases......


Thanks Apollo.

52gr Sierra Match Kings
Federal Champion primers.
Winchester brass
23.5gr of AR2206H ADI powder (max load, I expect he just went this with and stopped there)

Shoots about .8 MOA like I said.
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Re: How much difference do primers make to accuracy?

Post by Apollo » 28 Apr 2014, 12:07 pm

Here's a link to some primer testing photos just to show how different they all are.

http://www.6mmbr.com/primerpix.html

I'd say the primers you have are Federal 205's and the 205M are close. BTW, the "M" stands for "Match" not magnum like some people think. Just match graded.

If you wanted to experiment you could try a packet of CCI 400 Small Rifle some time but I would not suggest Remington 7/2 as they are a lot hotter and have much harder primer cups.

I think your biggest improvement would be a change of powder to something faster. For a long time the go to powder for a .222R was ADI AR2206 but that is now out of production and is not like the AR2206H. My mate has a huge supply of AR2206 here and that's what we use exclusively as it has proven way better than others. There enough here to see him and his son out for the rest of their days.

Really a reduction of that powder load may be more accurate and worth a test dropping the powder load but I think you would more benefit from a change to something fsater like Bench Mark 8208 or Benchmark 2 for that weight bullet.

The favourite bullet here for the .222R is 50gr and performed better than the same bullet in 52gr. Not much different in weight but the mates Brno Model Fox 2 really showed a marked increase in accuracy.

Just something to consider if you want to experiment.
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Re: How much difference do primers make to accuracy?

Post by chacho » 28 Apr 2014, 8:29 pm

Those Remington 9.5 Large Rifle primers look like a cutting torch or something :lol:
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Re: How much difference do primers make to accuracy?

Post by Seconds » 29 Apr 2014, 9:48 am

Googled this for your L461 Vixen.

(from castingboolts website member ColColt, not my data or shooting)

22.8gr IMR4895, 52gr Sierra's 0.53" group.

ColColt-22pt8-2206h-pt532-inch.jpg
L461 Vixen group
ColColt-22pt8-2206h-pt532-inch.jpg (36.66 KiB) Viewed 8628 times


IMR4895 ADI equivilent is 2206H according to their site.

Not far off your current load, might not take much to tighten it up...
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Re: How much difference do primers make to accuracy?

Post by horter » 29 Apr 2014, 9:50 am

Apollo wrote:Really a reduction of that powder load may be more accurate and worth a test dropping the powder load but I think you would more benefit from a change to something fsater like Bench Mark 8208 or Benchmark 2 for that weight bullet.


Looks that way from Seconds group photo too. Only .7gr off the current load, so I will try that first.

Next will be another powder.

Thanks heaps for input guys.
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Re: How much difference do primers make to accuracy?

Post by inspector » 29 Apr 2014, 9:52 am

2206H is discontinued anyway now right?

You might still be forced to change powders in the future... :(
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Re: How much difference do primers make to accuracy?

Post by Seik » 29 Apr 2014, 9:53 am

Think you'll find 2206 is discontinued, not 2206H ;)
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Re: How much difference do primers make to accuracy?

Post by inspector » 29 Apr 2014, 9:54 am

Ah righto :)
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Re: How much difference do primers make to accuracy?

Post by Apollo » 29 Apr 2014, 11:52 am

Just be a little careful with powder equivalents. AR2206H (H4895) is not exactly equivalent to IMR4895. As stated by ADI the list of equivalents is approximate within about 5%.

The IMR4895 is chemically different in that it has other additives. As listed by Hodgdon in their burn rate equivalents the IMR4895 is slightly slower than H4895.
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Re: How much difference do primers make to accuracy?

Post by horter » 29 Apr 2014, 12:23 pm

Thanks Apollo.

I will.
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Re: How much difference do primers make to accuracy?

Post by tom604 » 29 Apr 2014, 12:29 pm

so correct me if im wrong but so far the difference in accuracy is about .1 /.2 moa ? not enough to worry about if hunting and almost not worth it for target shooting unless your being beaten by a poofteenth ;)
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Re: How much difference do primers make to accuracy?

Post by horter » 01 May 2014, 7:40 pm

Not a big deal I guess.

Even though for hunting, gunna try a few different ones for the 30-06.

Annoying that it's just over the 1 MOA mark. If a different primer takes it just under that will be good.

Just for the sake of good numbers :lol:
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Re: How much difference do primers make to accuracy?

Post by AusC » 01 May 2014, 7:44 pm

Worth trying.

If it's as much as .2 MOA that could be the difference between a hit and miss at longer ranges.

Might mean not losing a prize ;)
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Re: How much difference do primers make to accuracy?

Post by Davies » 01 May 2014, 7:45 pm

Keeps you busy too. Something to learn.

Give it a go.
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Re: How much difference do primers make to accuracy?

Post by 5Tom » 02 May 2014, 6:45 am

I'll be testing both win LR and CCI 200 in both of my rifles in the next reloading batch with the same charges.

I think had my best groups with CCI primers with 1MOA accuracy out of my mosin, yet the same charge and a WIN LR primer seemed to scatter a little.

In saying that, I think my .243 seems to like the Win LR over CCI 200. Can only test and confirm.
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Re: How much difference do primers make to accuracy?

Post by horter » 02 May 2014, 4:09 pm

Let me know how you go if you could tom.

We can compare with results when I get mine done too.
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Re: How much difference do primers make to accuracy?

Post by 5Tom » 01 Jun 2014, 9:46 pm

Been out to the range today testing my current recipe. I loaded up the following:

10x rounds with CCI 200 primers @ 44.5gr of charge.
10x rounds with WinLR 200 Primers @ 44.5gr.
10x rounds with CCI 200 primers @ 44.8gr.
10x rounds with WinLR 200 primers @ 44.8gr.



I used only AR2209 powder, all cases were fully prepped, flash holes debured, COAL is 2.710 +/- 0.0015, Projecile used was the Nosler 70gr Ballistic Tip. The picture I uploaded here shows a comparison only between two groups, but the other test groups proved to be rather consistent with this picture. Overall, for me, CCI 200 primers produced tighter groups.

*Edit - why aren't any pictures being uploaded :(
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Re: How much difference do primers make to accuracy?

Post by Apollo » 01 Jun 2014, 11:01 pm

" *Edit - why aren't any pictures being uploaded :( "

It's probably too big, try resizing it or upload it to Photobucket or the like then post the IMG Code on a seperate line and it should include the image.
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Re: How much difference do primers make to accuracy?

Post by 5Tom » 02 Jun 2014, 9:49 pm

Here's the pic.
As per above post, The hand loads were made as identical as possible with the primer being the only difference. The rest of the test groupings had similar results. Just to add too, before I fired a test group, I waited for the barrel to cool to try to eliminate barrel temperature.

cci vs win lr.JPG
cci vs win lr.JPG (102.81 KiB) Viewed 6652 times
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Re: How much difference do primers make to accuracy?

Post by Warrigul » 02 Jun 2014, 10:08 pm

5Tom wrote:Here's the pic.
As per above post, The hand loads were made as identical as possible with the primer being the only difference. The rest of the test groupings had similar results. Just to add too, before I fired a test group, I waited for the barrel to cool to try to eliminate barrel temperature.




Is this really a fair test? You would need at least three groups of each for an average and to try and rule out the human factor.

Also seems to be more windage variation than elevation.

Just my humble opinion.
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Re: How much difference do primers make to accuracy?

Post by 5Tom » 02 Jun 2014, 11:27 pm

Here are the full targets from yesterday.
All with 44.5gr of 2209
photo 1.JPG
photo 1.JPG (125.75 KiB) Viewed 6643 times


All with 44.8gr 2209
photo 2.JPG
photo 2.JPG (126.02 KiB) Viewed 6643 times


As an average, CCI worked best for that load.
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