Pistol Powders

[Jackaroo]

When or how are Australian competitive pistol shooters going to get pistol powders ever to reload?

Are ADI ever going to make pistol powders again? Is any Australian company importing pistol powders from o'seas?

[No1Mk3]

G'day Jackaroo,
ADI treat us with contempt, because they will not make double base powder again and have suspended development of their new single base powder to overcome some issues, we are left in limbo while they concentrate on rifle powder for export. When, or indeed if, they return to pistol powder is anyones guess and the "updates" they spew out now and then are nothing but blather. A business in Qld is trying to import a small amount as an excercise to test viability, and is hoping to make a large order if all goes well. Other importers are having supply issues with those brands well known to us such as Alliant etc due to overseas demand. The biggest problem we are gioing to face is primers, Cheers.

[Jackaroo]

Hard to believe that ADI would just leave Aussie shooters out on a limb. Makes one really wonder what's behind it.

[bladeracer]

Hard to believe that ADI would just leave Aussie shooters out on a limb. Makes one really wonder what's behind it.

What's behind it is that they decommissioned the original production line to build the new line...that doesn't work, so they can't just go back to doing it the old way that worked. Until they get it working they can't produce the fast powders.

[Blr243]

I think in my business if I had some problem with a certain style of service I was providing that wasn’t working and it was costing me money , I would get jack of it real quick , esp if I had other lucrative work that was keeping me real busy ...for example ... I won’t build retaining Walls or carports and I won’t lay turf ... simply because they are hardwork for bugger all money. so I can sort of understand why adi appears uninterested in making pistol powder

[mickb]

I have concerns about the future of high volume recreational shooting period. primer and powder shortages are one thing. The other is the economic impact of the lockdowns . The bill for that still hasnt manifested fully yet, we could be paying it off for a generation. Our grandads generation couldnt afford to just blast of hundreds of rounds at paper targets, rocks or beer bottles either. Back then you shot local pests and food, any plinking or mucking about would be with a 22LR. My suggestion for anyone with enough pistol ammo or powder left is not to fry it at any range, buy a lever action or single shot and use it as a short range food option. The 'ability' of pistol powders is you have a gun that kills medium game to 75-100 yards with 1000-2000 reloads per single can of powder. Its what I would be saving it for now.

[bladeracer]

I think in my business if I had some problem with a certain style of service I was providing that wasn’t working and it was costing me money , I would get jack of it real quick , esp if I had other lucrative work that was keeping me real busy ...for example ... I won’t build retaining Walls or carports and I won’t lay turf ... simply because they are hardwork for bugger all money. so I can sort of understand why adi appears uninterested in making pistol powder

In this case though they already invested a pile in the new production line, that hasn't returned any of that investment for more than two years now. I would think they would want to get it working.

[Blr243]

Possibly blade. I spose in time it might eventuate but most of us now are not holding our breath waiting , instead hoping for some lovex or Alliant

[Oldbloke]

What's behind it is that they decommissioned the original production line to build the new line...that doesn't work, so they can't just go back to doing it the old way that worked. Until they get it working they can't produce the fast powders.

Correct

[Oldbloke]

In this case though they already invested a pile in the new production line, that hasn't returned any of that investment for more than two years now. I would think they would want to get it working.

That would make sense. And for the time being they can't make it. Nothing to do with treating us with contempt. To be blunt, it's a major cock up.

[No1Mk3]

In this case though they already invested a pile in the new production line, that hasn't returned any of that investment for more than two years now. I would think they would want to get it working.

That would make sense. And for the time being they can't make it. Nothing to do with treating us with contempt. To be blunt, it's a major cock up.

The fact that they are not even looking at the problem at the moment, and have no intention of doing so this year is contemptuous.

[dnedative]

In this case though they already invested a pile in the new production line, that hasn't returned any of that investment for more than two years now. I would think they would want to get it working.

That would make sense. And for the time being they can't make it. Nothing to do with treating us with contempt. To be blunt, it's a major cock up.

The fact that they are not even looking at the problem at the moment, and have no intention of doing so this year is contemptuous.

No, its called having sound business sense.
When there is money in making it, they will fix it, until then, they wont be fixing it.
Unless you willing to pay $1000/kg for the stuff the return on investment is not there.


Yeah, it sucks, we know.

[bladeracer]

In this case though they already invested a pile in the new production line, that hasn't returned any of that investment for more than two years now. I would think they would want to get it working.

That would make sense. And for the time being they can't make it. Nothing to do with treating us with contempt. To be blunt, it's a major cock up.

The fact that they are not even looking at the problem at the moment, and have no intention of doing so this year is contemptuous.

Do we know this to be fact?

[Oldbloke]

Umm, someone mentioned another OS company had exactly the same problem. Can't recall who tho.

[mickb]

So how well did this age? Has ADI made any further announcements? Anyone ever get a good reason why apart from the loss of pistol powders they never ran Ar2205 again ?

Would seem to be hugely profitable now being no magnum pistol powders have been around for years, a totally captive market in fact, and the yanks are asking for it too.

I think as the years go on, and its been years now, the apologists are going to have to bend further and further backward to explain all this. Some blokes must be folded almost in half already

[bladeracer]

So how well did this age? Has ADI made any further announcements? Anyone ever get a good reason why apart from the loss of pistol powders they never ran Ar2205 again ?

Would seem to be hugely profitable now being no magnum pistol powders have been around for years, a totally captive market in fact, and the yanks are asking for it too.

I think as the years go on, and its been years now, the apologists are going to have to bend further and further backward to explain all this. Some blokes must be folded almost in half already

I haven't seen anything further from ADI, I was thinking I might write and ask if we're likely to see any updates.
I wouldn't expect to see any fast powders through 2024 at least.
Whether they actually decide to invest money into it again is up in the air I think, especially with the proposed firearm laws in WA. You'd want some good long term contracts in place to invest millions into producing powder or primers in a country that could shut down firearm ownership overnight whenever they get the urge. They already have a functioning production line for their rifle powders so I don't see them shutting that down. The issue is whether they're making enough out of that to warrant investing in replacing the non-functioning line again, or trying to get it to work. I believe it was the government contracts that wanted them to switch to single-base for their fast powders, I don't think it was done to improve profits. If they had a good government contract I'm sure they already would've sorted it so I'm guessing they don't, thus it would only be for our very small market of civilian pistol/shotgun shooters, which could take decades to recoup the cost. Recent times have shown that this small market will happily bear much higher prices though, which might tempt them. Even doubling the price would still sell the powder so profit would be high.

I have been surprised that GD in Canada don't seem to have taken up production as these powders still seem to be "out of stock: no backorder" in the US. I did see one of the smaller online dealers had listed about 140 bottles of IMR4227 (which is AR2205) but perhaps they're producing it at GD under DuPont's old recipe rather than ADI's? Or much more likely, the online seller hasn't updated their website and they don't actually have any?

[mickb]

If you email them, let us know what they say mate.

particularly interested why they took Ar2205 off the market as its the elephant in the room here . Its not the least common rifle powder, everyone wants it, including the buying power of North America and it would have a captive market here.

Those of us more in the conspiracy camp worry the ditching of Ar2205 is associated with a general attack on pistol cart reloading.

Those in the other camp just plain ignore its loss since it doesnt gel with any explanation from ADI or one they can make up themselves

The one thing we can all agree on is it needs an answer.

[Billo]

The simple answer is the French Govt/thales dont give a crap about Aussies shooters and this would simply be a commercial decision. We are the pimple on the global pistol shooting butt.

As to an attack on Pistol shooting, that's just an easy assumption too make but without foundation.

NIOA control most of the market and have the ability to import Pistol powders but makes a bunch more $$$ selling Loaded ammo, its all about PROFIT.

[Jackaroo]

End of August 2023 reply from ADI

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[mickb]

The simple answer is the French Govt/thales dont give a crap about Aussies shooters and this would simply be a commercial decision. We are the pimple on the global pistol shooting butt.

As to an attack on Pistol shooting, that's just an easy assumption too make but without foundation.

NIOA control most of the market and have the ability to import Pistol powders but makes a bunch more $$$ selling Loaded ammo, its all about PROFIT.

mate the sector of reloading has always been profitable, highly, and still is in the 50 or so countries worldwide who allow their citizens to do it.

[mickb]

End of August 2023 reply from ADI

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Has anyone actually asked them what happened to Ar2205?

[deye243]

The simple answer is the French Govt/thales dont give a crap about Aussies shooters and this would simply be a commercial decision. We are the pimple on the global pistol shooting butt.

As to an attack on Pistol shooting, that's just an easy assumption too make but without foundation.

NIOA control most of the market and have the ability to import Pistol powders but makes a bunch more $$$ selling Loaded ammo, its all about PROFIT.

mate the sector of reloading has always been profitable, highly, and still is in the 50 or so countries worldwide who allow their citizens to do it.

Well not in Australia I know a couple of blokes who went to the last NIOA I think it was get together and they were told that the Australian arms market is just .2% of the world market so with less than 1% of shooters and hunters reloading I don't see it being very profitable here .

[mickb]

Well not in Australia I k ow a couple of bloke who went to the last NIOA I think it was and they were told that the Australian arms market is just .2% of the world market so with less than 1% of shooters and hunters reloading I don't see it being very profitable here .

Thats market share mate, not profitability.

[wanneroo]

I think the Australian government likes some degree of self sufficiency when it comes to military and firearm equipment so I would expect they will eventually get their line sorted to make pistol powder.

In the mean time companies just need to import powder to Australia and that is that. Here in the USA powder supplies are building up substantially and there really isn't much missing from the shelves, plus some of it is being put on sale. So I really don't think worldwide supply is an issue anymore like it was 2 years ago.

[mickb]

well its good news that ADI said testing APS and TB over the next 12 months, thanks jackaroo for posting

[bladeracer]

If you email them, let us know what they say mate.

particularly interested why they took Ar2205 off the market as its the elephant in the room here . Its not the least common rifle powder, everyone wants it, including the buying power of North America and it would have a captive market here.

Those of us more in the conspiracy camp worry the ditching of Ar2205 is associated with a general attack on pistol cart reloading.

Those in the other camp just plain ignore its loss since it doesn't gel with any explanation from ADI or one they can make up themselves

The one thing we can all agree on is it needs an answer.

I agree about AR2205, it should have been produced on the same line as the other rifle powders as far as I can see, but perhaps they use different coatings or something to increase the burn rate - I'm no chemist.

I can't see any sense to a theory about preventing pistol loading as there is still plenty of pistol ammo around. I guess it might make it easier for criminals to make their own ammo, but if they can get illegal handguns I'm sure they have no difficulty getting ammo for them. Somebody that owns an illegal handgun probably only needs ten rounds for their lifetime, I think if they were out practicing like a civilian shooter they'd soon come to the attention of the authorities.

[bladeracer]

The simple answer is the French Govt/thales dont give a crap about Aussies shooters and this would simply be a commercial decision. We are the pimple on the global pistol shooting butt.

As to an attack on Pistol shooting, that's just an easy assumption too make but without foundation.

NIOA control most of the market and have the ability to import Pistol powders but makes a bunch more $$$ selling Loaded ammo, its all about PROFIT.

I agree, it's purely a financial issue. They spent a heap replacing the line, then they lost a heap on top of that when they tossed all of the powder they'd produced on it due to poor quality. I don't imagine any business venture deciding to invest millions of dollars into our tiny market just for the goodwill of a relative handful of shooters. If they can't see recouping the outlay relatively quickly and then turning profits within a year or two why would anybody bother?

Are you sure NOA can import powders? There are shortages right across the world that I can see. I'm quite sure they legally can but if they can't get the powder how do they import it?

[bladeracer]

mate the sector of reloading has always been profitable, highly, and still is in the 50 or so countries worldwide who allow their citizens to do it.

It's profitable while you have the production line already in place. Starting from scratch in our tiny market I doubt will be profitable.

[bladeracer]

well its good news that ADI said testing APS and TB over the next 12 months, thanks jackaroo for posting

They told me similarly, that's why I don't expect to see any of these powders until the end of 2024 at best.

[mickb]

Are you sure NOA can import powders? There are shortages right across the world that I can see. I'm quite sure they legally can but if they can't get the powder how do they import it?

Plenty of powders in Europe mate, several large concerns just signed major agencies with international buyers and are looking for more. If Noia isnt indulging its because they dont want the money or hassle or dont care.

And regards all this talk about profitability etc I notice we still gloss over the elephant in the room Ar2205.

Did we or anyone ever get an explanation for this rifle powder vanishing