Pistol Powders

[bladeracer]

Thanks mate. I have to admit it makes no sense at all, a really ambiguous reply by them, why are they re-researching an established product. But at least they replied.

Im going to back off a little on my banging the gong about this stuff. I make no bones about my position, I believe shooters are being screwed. I recall 1996 when most government departments, the media, even private universities and some gun related businesses came together to destroy 50% of our existence. The idea that just a few groups and gun businesses can come together now to confound reloaders is really not much of a stretch. The amount of crazy bills and ideas coming across the floor every week from the police, lobbyists, major businesses would astound most gunowners if they bothered to check them.

But the site has few enough posting members that there are better places to argue hard on those subjects . Especially blokes like yourself Bladeracer, oldbloke etc who contribute a lot to the remaining gun related posts here. Back to those subjects for me.

I asked him specifically this time, "We're wondering what makes AR2205 so different from the other rifle powders that it can't be manufactured on the same line as those. AR2205 is a single-base powder isn't it?".

I remember 1987 when the AMA, aided by 60 Minutes, had a big push at banning motorcycles from our roads. Come up with some crazy idea and you'll have no shortage of braindead warriors wanting to climb on your bandwagon.

The forum has become pretty hopeless since they took away email notifications I think. Somebody signs up, post a question, then they have to remember to keep checking back on a forum they've never used before and might not even remember the name of hoping somebody has responded. I thought it was just me but I've tried numerous times to get notifications to work again with zero success. I have a shortcut on the menu bar so I'm always aware the site is there and it's easy to click it to see what's new.

[Oldbloke]

"The forum has become pretty hopeless since they took away email notifications I think. Somebody signs up, post a question, then they have to remember to keep checking back on a forum they've never used before and might not even remember the name of hoping somebody has responded. I thought it was just me but I've tried numerous times to get notifications to work again with zero success"

I knew something was going on. But didn't put my finger on it. I'll message mods.

[Aster]

Hey OB, Bladeracer,

The forum has become pretty hopeless since they took away email notifications

Nothing has been 'taken away', the notification for replies is there the same as it always has been.

I've had no other reports of issues. When was the last notification you got?

OB, I've also emailed you directly. Let me know if it arrives.

[bladeracer]

Hey OB, Bladeracer,

The forum has become pretty hopeless since they took away email notifications

Nothing has been 'taken away', the notification for replies is there the same as it always has been.

I've had no other reports of issues. When was the last notification you got?

OB, I've also emailed you directly. Let me know if it arrives.

Hi Aster.
I haven't received any notification of any kind from Enoughgun since 18:06 on June 7, 2022.

Screenshot 2024-02-07 235556.jpg (284.83 KiB) Viewed 1577 times

And I have tried numerous times to change the settings in my Account with no change. In my Account no threads are subscribed. It tells me I have 3580 topics but also says "You are not subscribed to any forums"

Screenshot 2024-02-07 235750.jpg (116.06 KiB) Viewed 1577 times

Screenshot 2024-02-07 235731.jpg (157.67 KiB) Viewed 1577 times

Private messages work fine but I never get notifications about them, I have to remember to check for them.
I have assumed that nobody at all has received any notifications from the forum since that same period.

[Oldbloke]

Blade,
More likely just a "glitch" in the system. Or at some stage a mod changed an option by mistake.

Aster is on to it. I'm sure he will do his best to fix it.

[wanneroo]

Same here, I no longer get notifications for private messages for instance.

[Aster]

It seems I've found the source of the problem.

Long story short, previously the forum emails were sent via Gmail. It seems at some point after years of doing this fine, Google has just decided to quietly no longer accept mail from a wide range of hosts.

No failed delivery notifications, no error reports etc., just a quiet stop. So that was helpful

I've switched to a different system now, but requires some real world testing.

OB, Blade, let me know over the next day or two what you get, if you would.

In my Account no threads are subscribed. It tells me I have 3580 topics but also says "You are not subscribed to any forums"

That should be no issue.

You can be subscribed to Topics to get notifications of new Replies.

Or subscribed to Forums to get notifications of new Topics.

If you're subscribed to topics you should be receiving the notification.

Let me know how you guys get on over the next day.

[Oldbloke]

Thx Aster. Will do.

[deye243]

I managed to pick up 22 1/2 lb of aliant select powder it works great in 9mm 38spl and any low pressure case now when I told a lot of people about it they all bitched about it being 400k away and that's not the 1st time I have found bargain like this and the response is always the same lazy ****** just dont want to get off their arse to go get it you know the same wankers that say pepol like me are horders I say now f*** you I got heaps you got nothing suck s**t .
In the last 13 months I found that 22 1/2 lb and more than 12 000 pistol primers it ain't hard just get off ya bum and stop bitching .

[gunderson]

hahaha I love it, I did a similar thing with my powder and primers, albeit not being as scarce as what the pistol stuff has been, still I found myself thinking the same thing, people saying there are no primers, there is no powder etc... yet I went and bought heaps of each, without a hassle, perhaps they just dont want to use a different brand? or pay the new prices?

[Jackaroo]

Nine years is getting a bit old isn't it? Like seriously WTF .....NINE YEARS????????



12 March 2015

Dear,

Australian Munitions is making some changes to the way we manufacture our pistol and shotgun powders. These changes are necessary to ensure that we can sustainably manufacture these products for many years to come. We are making changes to both the manufacturing process and formulation of the powders, in order to sustain the manufacturability and throughput of the Australian Shotgun (AS) and Australian Pistol (AP) series powders.

The result of this change will be a new series of powders that will give our customers the performance excellence you have come to expect from ADI powders in both shotgun and pistol applications. This new series of powders will be called the APS series of powders, starting with APS35 that will replace AS30N, and APS45 that will replace both AS50N and AP50N. You will see these powders start appearing on the shelves after May this year, and we will be making reloading data available for them on our website and in the 2015 edition of our reloading manual, which will be released in May. Our development of APS-series powders to replace AP70N is well under way, but we will continue to supply AP70N throughout 2015 until the new powder is ready for release. AP100 manufacture is not affected by these changes, as it is manufactured differently.

While we are making these changes, it is unfortunately possible that you may experience some difficulty obtaining AS30N, AP50N and AS50N. This is due to the fact that it is getting more difficult for us to run the old process regularly, which is an important part of the reasoning behind making the changes. We ask that you please remain patient during this time, as the changes are essential to ensuring that we can continue making these powders in Australia well into the future.

Thank you for your ongoing support, and for using our World Class powders, proudly made in Australia. We appreciate your custom.

Be safe out there, and enjoy your reloading.

Ferdi Kluever

Sales Director, Australian Munitions

[bladeracer]

Nine years is getting a bit old isn't it? Like seriously WTF .....NINE YEARS????????



12 March 2015

Dear,

Australian Munitions is making some changes to the way we manufacture our pistol and shotgun powders. These changes are necessary to ensure that we can sustainably manufacture these products for many years to come. We are making changes to both the manufacturing process and formulation of the powders, in order to sustain the manufacturability and throughput of the Australian Shotgun (AS) and Australian Pistol (AP) series powders.

The result of this change will be a new series of powders that will give our customers the performance excellence you have come to expect from ADI powders in both shotgun and pistol applications. This new series of powders will be called the APS series of powders, starting with APS35 that will replace AS30N, and APS45 that will replace both AS50N and AP50N. You will see these powders start appearing on the shelves after May this year, and we will be making reloading data available for them on our website and in the 2015 edition of our reloading manual, which will be released in May. Our development of APS-series powders to replace AP70N is well under way, but we will continue to supply AP70N throughout 2015 until the new powder is ready for release. AP100 manufacture is not affected by these changes, as it is manufactured differently.

While we are making these changes, it is unfortunately possible that you may experience some difficulty obtaining AS30N, AP50N and AS50N. This is due to the fact that it is getting more difficult for us to run the old process regularly, which is an important part of the reasoning behind making the changes. We ask that you please remain patient during this time, as the changes are essential to ensuring that we can continue making these powders in Australia well into the future.

Thank you for your ongoing support, and for using our World Class powders, proudly made in Australia. We appreciate your custom.

Be safe out there, and enjoy your reloading.

Ferdi Kluever

Sales Director, Australian Munitions

Nice find, do you have a link to the original article?

So there were already problems with producing the double-base powders that lead to them changing? I thought the only problem with it was that the military didn't want double-base powders any more. I think their mistake was trumpeting it as a success before they'd really turned up manufacturing as most of the initial output ended up being scrapped. I love to know how much APS actually made it to market as people do pop up on FB that are still using it. I also wonder if they were experimenting with APS before they put in the new production line? Perhaps they did have a successful product during testing, that only fell apart due to installing the new line to produce it in bulk?

I would expect they spent a year or more before that announcement working on the formula. But as I have no idea how long it takes to produce a propellant line from scratch I don't know if it's a poor or an excellent time line. I think we can write-off a good three years during covid as I doubt any development was occurring then.

I bought almost all of my AP and AS powders before APS was a thing on shelves, I don't think I've ever seen an APS bottle.

[wanneroo]

It will be nice if the ADI folks get their crap together and make some pistol powders but we will see.

In the meantime glad some companies are seeing the light and sourcing product from overseas.

The great thing with pistol powders is a little goes a long way so if you have a couple of kilos, it will last a long time.

[Jackaroo]

Nine years is getting a bit old isn't it? Like seriously WTF .....NINE YEARS????????



12 March 2015

Dear,

Australian Munitions is making some changes to the way we manufacture our pistol and shotgun powders. These changes are necessary to ensure that we can sustainably manufacture these products for many years to come. We are making changes to both the manufacturing process and formulation of the powders, in order to sustain the manufacturability and throughput of the Australian Shotgun (AS) and Australian Pistol (AP) series powders.

The result of this change will be a new series of powders that will give our customers the performance excellence you have come to expect from ADI powders in both shotgun and pistol applications. This new series of powders will be called the APS series of powders, starting with APS35 that will replace AS30N, and APS45 that will replace both AS50N and AP50N. You will see these powders start appearing on the shelves after May this year, and we will be making reloading data available for them on our website and in the 2015 edition of our reloading manual, which will be released in May. Our development of APS-series powders to replace AP70N is well under way, but we will continue to supply AP70N throughout 2015 until the new powder is ready for release. AP100 manufacture is not affected by these changes, as it is manufactured differently.

While we are making these changes, it is unfortunately possible that you may experience some difficulty obtaining AS30N, AP50N and AS50N. This is due to the fact that it is getting more difficult for us to run the old process regularly, which is an important part of the reasoning behind making the changes. We ask that you please remain patient during this time, as the changes are essential to ensuring that we can continue making these powders in Australia well into the future.

Thank you for your ongoing support, and for using our World Class powders, proudly made in Australia. We appreciate your custom.

Be safe out there, and enjoy your reloading.

Ferdi Kluever

Sales Director, Australian Munitions

Nice find, do you have a link to the original article?

So there were already problems with producing the double-base powders that lead to them changing? I thought the only problem with it was that the military didn't want double-base powders any more. I think their mistake was trumpeting it as a success before they'd really turned up manufacturing as most of the initial output ended up being scrapped. I love to know how much APS actually made it to market as people do pop up on FB that are still using it. I also wonder if they were experimenting with APS before they put in the new production line? Perhaps they did have a successful product during testing, that only fell apart due to installing the new line to produce it in bulk?

I would expect they spent a year or more before that announcement working on the formula. But as I have no idea how long it takes to produce a propellant line from scratch I don't know if it's a poor or an excellent time line. I think we can write-off a good three years during covid as I doubt any development was occurring then.

I bought almost all of my AP and AS powders before APS was a thing on shelves, I don't think I've ever seen an APS bottle.

It was from an email to me which I suspect was just a form letter that was sent out to enquirers, that's the only time in my correspondence back and forth with ADI that I received correspondence from a Ferdi Kluever.

I have had three (3) jugs of ADI APS350, still have one full about to be opened. Its been a great powder for .38 for Single Action.

[mickb]

its the definition of a really s**t show. people missing out on something at the availability and cost it used to be which is the main issue, businesses acting bizarrely, price gouging, folks going nyah nyah i got it you dont, and conspiracy theorists and apologists duelling each other....

[Jackaroo]

If a 'bloke' can bring in containers and containers of Vhitivouri, Lovex (CleanShot) and Vectan in lots of different offerings multiple times, its very very strange that the big players like NIOA are not in the game.

[bladeracer]

its the definition of a really s**t show. people missing out on something at the availability and cost it used to be which is the main issue, businesses acting bizarrely, price gouging, folks going nyah nyah i got it you dont, and conspiracy theorists and apologists duelling each other....

Don't even get sucked into it, just use shotshell powders, far cheaper than paying current prices on the import stuff. Use the shot to cast your bullets as well and it's even cheaper still.

[bladeracer]

If a 'bloke' can bring in containers and containers of Vhitivouri, Lovex (CleanShot) and Vectan in lots of different offerings multiple times, its very very strange that the big players like NIOA are not in the game.

I was looking at the Vic laws and any dealer can import ammo, powders, primers so it's only down to whoever is willing to fork out the capital to do it. I suspect it's more an issue of finding the stuff to import. We can even import it ourselves as long as it comes through a dealer's licence. I'd be interested in seeing a breakdown of the costs to see whether these imports are just breaking even or are a real source of profit. You have to be able to lay out a fair whack of money and wait six months hoping the shipment eventually rocks up.

Prices of Lovex, Vectan and Vihtavuori pistol powders are around the $270-$330 per kg looking across some sites.
A 500kg shipment sells for around $140,000 I guess so the outlay is not enormous, but it is up there.

I found a price in Czech for Vectan at A$77 a pound, and the pistol powders are about 20% more expensive than the rifle powders. So it's selling here for roughly double what it sells for in the country of manufacture. Perhaps the importers here are buying it at retail prices?

[deye243]

And another problem is getting one of those manufacturers to even bother with such a small order

[Oldbloke]

If a 'bloke' can bring in containers and containers of Vhitivouri, Lovex (CleanShot) and Vectan in lots of different offerings multiple times, its very very strange that the big players like NIOA are not in the game.

I was looking at the Vic laws and any dealer can import ammo, powders, primers so it's only down to whoever is willing to fork out the capital to do it. I suspect it's more an issue of finding the stuff to import. We can even import it ourselves as long as it comes through a dealer's licence. I'd be interested in seeing a breakdown of the costs to see whether these imports are just breaking even or are a real source of profit. You have to be able to lay out a fair whack of money and wait six months hoping the shipment eventually rocks up.

Prices of Lovex, Vectan and Vihtavuori pistol powders are around the $270-$330 per kg looking across some sites.
A 500kg shipment sells for around $140,000 I guess so the outlay is not enormous, but it is up there.

I found a price in Czech for Vectan at A$77 a pound, and the pistol powders are about 20% more expensive than the rifle powders. So it's selling here for roughly double what it sells for in the country of manufacture. Perhaps the importers here are buying it at retail prices?

Didn't know that.

[Sarco]

My concern with the pistol powders at the moment is the need to eventually keep adapting to what is available.

While for the time being I have adequate amounts of all the ADI powders I use, and a few others, if the pistol powders don't come back online in the next 12 months or so, I will have to redevelop all my loads with what ever I have on hand and/or can get. This of course, consumes more powder and primers, and consequently reduces what I have available!

[wanneroo]

My concern with the pistol powders at the moment is the need to eventually keep adapting to what is available.

While for the time being I have adequate amounts of all the ADI powders I use, and a few others, if the pistol powders don't come back online in the next 12 months or so, I will have to redevelop all my loads with what ever I have on hand and/or can get. This of course, consumes more powder and primers, and consequently reduces what I have available!

Well that is why if you can find a good pistol powder, buy in bulk. The good thing about pistol powder is it goes a long way. Also typically developing pistol loads isn't as complicated as rifle loads I find. Often with so much data these days available I have often hit the mark with the first load.

[deye243]

My concern with the pistol powders at the moment is the need to eventually keep adapting to what is available.

While for the time being I have adequate amounts of all the ADI powders I use, and a few others, if the pistol powders don't come back online in the next 12 months or so, I will have to redevelop all my loads with what ever I have on hand and/or can get. This of course, consumes more powder and primers, and consequently reduces what I have available!

Well that is why if you can find a good pistol powder, buy in bulk. The good thing about pistol powder is it goes a long way. Also typically developing pistol loads isn't as complicated as rifle loads I find. Often with so much data these days available I have often hit the mark with the first load.

I have found the same

[mickb]

If a 'bloke' can bring in containers and containers of Vhitivouri, Lovex (CleanShot) and Vectan in lots of different offerings multiple times, its very very strange that the big players like NIOA are not in the game.

I was looking at the Vic laws and any dealer can import ammo, powders, primers so it's only down to whoever is willing to fork out the capital to do it. I suspect it's more an issue of finding the stuff to import. We can even import it ourselves as long as it comes through a dealer's licence. I'd be interested in seeing a breakdown of the costs to see whether these imports are just breaking even or are a real source of profit. You have to be able to lay out a fair whack of money and wait six months hoping the shipment eventually rocks up.

Prices of Lovex, Vectan and Vihtavuori pistol powders are around the $270-$330 per kg looking across some sites.
A 500kg shipment sells for around $140,000 I guess so the outlay is not enormous, but it is up there.

I found a price in Czech for Vectan at A$77 a pound, and the pistol powders are about 20% more expensive than the rifle powders. So it's selling here for roughly double what it sells for in the country of manufacture. Perhaps the importers here are buying it at retail prices?

Vectan isnt that price here,thats re-sellers. Bronzwing retailed it for $85-90 a pound here. My alottment of 2kg cost $340-350 from memory.

that means Bronzewing got it across pretty cheaply. I reckon the other small players could have done a lot better prices too,,, but thats their business. Bronzewing admittedly is larger than the small businesses bringing it in (but still tiny compared to a Nioa)

As to whats available, the Euro makers are looking for agency, so they can provide plenty including sustained orders. No reason a major couldnt be doing it even faster with better discounts and 20x the supply.....a year ago.

[bladeracer]

Vectan isnt that price here, thats secondary sellers gouging people. Bronzwing sold it off for about $85-90 a pound here My alottment of 2kg cost $350 and something bucks from memory.

that means Bronzewing got it on the water across pretty cheaply. I reckon the other small players could have done a lot better prices too,,, but thats their business. Bronzewing admittedly is larger than the small businesses bringing it in, but still tiny compared to a Nioa.

As to whats available, already covered that. The Euro makers are looking for agency, so they can provide plenty including sustained orders. No reason a major couldnt be doing it even faster with better discounts and 50x the supply.

I just searched the three powders (Vectan, Lovex, Vihtavuori) and looked at online prices here in OZ (their rifle powders are cheaper of course). The cheapest I found was $120 a pound which is $265/kg, and it went up to $330/kg. Until we know how much the importers are paying there's no way of knowing whether they're profiting or just breaking even. If they're buying it retail because the manufacturers won't sell it then it's possible they're paying as much as $80,000 just for the powder, plus fees, plus freight, plus interest on the investment. The usual import seems to be 450kg or 1000 one-pound bottles. In this case they're probably selling it for something like a 50% markup, which isn't much. If they're buying it for $40,000 (assuming 100% markup from wholesale) then I'd think they're doing alright on the deal, and I don't begrudge them a single dollar of it.

If the manufacturers already have Aussie distributors (that aren't bringing in the product for some reason) then it's possible they will refuse to export directly to Australia without going through their contracted distributor, in which case it's possible the importers are having to buy it from a retailer in Czech rather than the wholesaler.

[mickb]

Vectan isnt that price here, thats secondary sellers gouging people. Bronzwing sold it off for about $85-90 a pound here My alottment of 2kg cost $350 and something bucks from memory.

that means Bronzewing got it on the water across pretty cheaply. I reckon the other small players could have done a lot better prices too,,, but thats their business. Bronzewing admittedly is larger than the small businesses bringing it in, but still tiny compared to a Nioa.

As to whats available, already covered that. The Euro makers are looking for agency, so they can provide plenty including sustained orders. No reason a major couldnt be doing it even faster with better discounts and 50x the supply.

I just searched the three powders (Vectan, Lovex, Vihtavuori) and looked at online prices here in OZ (their rifle powders are cheaper of course). The cheapest I found was $120 a pound which is $265/kg, and it went up to $330/kg. Until we know how much the importers are paying there's no way of knowing whether they're profiting or just breaking even. If they're buying it retail because the manufacturers won't sell it then it's possible they're paying as much as $80,000 just for the powder, plus fees, plus freight, plus interest on the investment. The usual import seems to be 450kg or 1000 one-pound bottles. In this case they're probably selling it for something like a 50% markup, which isn't much. If they're buying it for $40,000 (assuming 100% markup from wholesale) then I'd think they're doing alright on the deal, and I don't begrudge them a single dollar of it.

If the manufacturers already have Aussie distributors (that aren't bringing in the product for some reason) then it's possible they will refuse to export directly to Australia without going through their contracted distributor, in which case it's possible the importers are having to buy it from a retailer in Czech rather than the wholesaler.

Well Bronzewing was retailing Vectan it to the public for $85-90/lb end of last year. I had 2 kg ( Ba 6 1/2 and BA 7/12 magnum pistol powders) invloiced for $340 or so. The prices you are seeing on Vectan now are resellers gouging.

Which means Bronzewing got it in within 10-15% of current Euro Retail, direct. In other words with all the logistics and shipping, it was a pretty reasonable deal. Admittedly they brought in tons. The 450kg fgure was what Tiger ballistics brought in from Lovex, not relevant to anyone else.

Bronzewing brought in a much larger amount, a partial container load. The smaller businesses may not be able to match that? One thing is the supply is there for bigger companies.

[Oldbloke]

Just guessing.

OSA, I think the key distributor probably has an agreement with ADI.

So, they will not import other powders due to contract reasons.

[bladeracer]

One thing is the supply is there for bigger companies.

Do you know this to be fact?

[mickb]

One thing is the supply is there for bigger companies.

Do you know this to be fact?

Only what I have been told mate, talking to companies in the business. bronzewing apparently has another load on the way. But easy enough to check, call or email bronzewing to see if they still do, and whoever is bringing in the Vihta.

People can also get on the expression of interest list. I'm not bothering this time as I couldnt get to Vic to pick up my allocation last time( back in QLD again, cant jusitfy a 3000km return trip)

The best powders IMO for Vectan are
BA 6 1/2. Slow burning magnum pistol, roughly Win296 level
BA 7 /2. Slightly faster but still heavy pistol powder, like Blue Dot from memory
Ba 9. Vectans version of Unique or AP-70

I had 6 1/2 and 7 1/2 allocated but alas not to be and when the laws changed to disallow more than 5kg being moved across NSW it stopped smaller QLD gunstores from self driving to pick up their own too.

[mickb]

Just guessing.

OSA, I think the key distributor probably has an agreement with ADI.

So, they will not import other powders due to contract reasons.

Could be oldbloke