Guard loads, subsonics- pistol powders in rifle cartridges

[mickb]

Its almost a forgotten arcane art but was a lot more popular in the mid 20th century. A range of good pistol powders were now on the market and people having less money took advantage of economical loads for small game, teaching shooting or plinking. You say 'reduced load' to most hunters( particularly aussies who are high powered bolt actions owners) they think you mean dropping from AR2209 back to AR2207.

What I am talking about is when a lot of old load manuals had a section devoted to running small loads of pistol powders in large rifle cartridges. Much like trailboss does however most people dont realise a bunch of pistol powders can work like trailboss in a rifle cartridge. ADI still lists a couple loads with a few grains of AS-30N in 308 and 223 to get speed of sound loads with jacketed bullets.

There was also a famous load called the guard load around WW2, a few grains of bullseye in 30-06 cartridges and jacketed bullets used for POW/military prison guards where you didnt want a bullet going through an inmate into the nearby town. it acheived speed of sound levels with the regular military jacketed bullets, decent accuracy too apparently within its range.

Also a bunch of loads dedicated to magnum pistol powders like Alliant 2400 which in 15-25 grain loadings will get a variety of full size rifle cartridges safely to sub 2000fps level.

A lot of this art is forgotten outside of cast bullet or other enthusiasts. As mentioned with the luxurious late 20th century lifestyle why bother with this when you can plink with full powered packet ammo.

I always said this art would return if the worlds economy tanked but what I didnt predict was pistol powders themselves becoming so much harder to find than rifle powders! Now if you are looking for the longest term term option you are better off filling the gunsafe with something that uses Ar2208

[bladeracer]

Its almost a forgotten arcane art but was a lot more popular in the mid 20th century. A range of good pistol powders were now on the market and people having less money took advantage of economical loads for small game, teaching shooting or plinking. You say 'reduced load' to most hunters( particularly aussies who are high powered bolt actions owners) they think you mean dropping from AR2209 back to AR2207.

What I am talking about is when a lot of old load manuals had a section devoted to running small loads of pistol powders in large rifle cartridges. Much like trailboss does however most people dont realise a bunch of pistol powders can work like trailboss in a rifle cartridge. ADI still lists a couple loads with a few grains of AS-30N in 308 and 223 to get speed of sound loads with jacketed bullets.

There was also a famous load called the guard load around WW2, a few grains of bullseye in 30-06 cartridges and jacketed bullets used for POW/military prison guards where you didnt want a bullet going through an inmate into the nearby town. it acheived speed of sound levels with the regular military jacketed bullets, decent accuracy too apparently within its range.

Also a bunch of loads dedicated to magnum pistol powders like Alliant 2400 which in 15-25 grain loadings will get a variety of full size rifle cartridges safely to sub 2000fps level.

A lot of this art is forgotten outside of cast bullet or other enthusiasts. As mentioned with the luxurious late 20th century lifestyle why bother with this when you can plink with full powered packet ammo.

I always said this art would return if the worlds economy tanked but what I didnt predict was pistol powders themselves becoming so much harder to find than rifle powders! Now if you are looking for the longest term term option you are better off filling the gunsafe with something that uses Ar2208

This is a great deal of my load development in all my firearms, simply because it makes shooting more pleasant and less expensive. I have no idea if I had even heard of reduced loads in '83 before I started loading my .222 down to mimic WMR, and LR loads with better accuracy from the jacketed bullets. It was certainly a lot cheaper to shoot WMR loads in the .222 than to buy factory WMR ammo, but I don't believe I ever got my LR loads down to being cheaper than factory .22LR ammo. I have subsonic loads for everything - .303, .30-30, 8x57mm, .204, .30-06 and so on. I don't consider most of them to have much viable hunting purpose other than coup de gras finishing shots on injured animals at near-contact distances, but for simply spending time laying in a paddock plinking at steel or paper they're tough to beat. And using pistol bullets, like the 60gn, 85gn and 100gn XTP does make subsonic .303, .30-30, .308 and .30-06 viable for quiet hunting.

I recommend AR2206H over AR2208 though for reduced loads, while we can't get Trailboss.

[mickb]

Yes a few of us out there into this like yourself blade. I like the idea of the magnum pistol powders especially. Alliant 2400 in particular is an amazing powder. Its like the big brother to trailboss regards use in rifle cartridges. Where Trailboss gets a rifle to subsonic levels, 2400 in the right dose gets them over 1500fps. Nothing to write home about but into some kind of killing power and powder charges half that of normal. Again, with Alliant gone from our shores, its a bit of a moot point...

[bladeracer]

Yes a few of us out there into this like yourself blade. I like the idea of the magnum pistol powders especially. Alliant 2400 in particular is an amazing powder. Its like the big brother to trailboss regards use in rifle cartridges. Where Trailboss gets a rifle to subsonic levels, 2400 in the right dose gets them over 1500fps. Nothing to write home about but into some kind of killing power and powder charges half that of normal. Again, with Alliant gone from our shores, its a bit of a moot point...

There is a decent overlap between where TB runs out of puff and AR2206H though, that's why I prefer AR2206H over AR2208. You can use the AR2206H right down to low subsonic if you want to, it's just not as efficient as TB. I run 180gn cast bullets at 1300fps in 8x57mm on 14gn of TB or 20gn of AR2206H. My "standard" 8x57mm load is 40gn of AR2206H behind the Nosler 180gn BT, but it's still pretty light at 2200fps - ADI max is 47.7gn at 2700fps.

[Bills Shed]

I too play in the world of reduced loads. Still tinkering with the 17hornet to get it to HRM velocities. I have a good qty of AS50 here that I was going to try. Very small steps with that though.

Bill

[mickb]

I too play in the world of reduced loads. Still tinkering with the 17hornet to get it to HRM velocities. I have a good qty of AS50 here that I was going to try. Very small steps with that though.

Bill

Hi Bill, I managed to get a few kg of that stuff before it dissappeared too. I dont actually know much about it, except assume the burn rate has to be between As-30N and Ap-70 You ever tried cast boolit forums, those fellas have tried pistol powders in most calibres. Im thinking( guessing) As-50N must be somewhere near Bullseye or win-231. Mention those powders and 17 hornet you might get a lead.

[mickb]

Yes a few of us out there into this like yourself blade. I like the idea of the magnum pistol powders especially. Alliant 2400 in particular is an amazing powder. Its like the big brother to trailboss regards use in rifle cartridges. Where Trailboss gets a rifle to subsonic levels, 2400 in the right dose gets them over 1500fps. Nothing to write home about but into some kind of killing power and powder charges half that of normal. Again, with Alliant gone from our shores, its a bit of a moot point...

There is a decent overlap between where TB runs out of puff and AR2206H though, that's why I prefer AR2206H over AR2208. You can use the AR2206H right down to low subsonic if you want to, it's just not as efficient as TB. I run 180gn cast bullets at 1300fps in 8x57mm on 14gn of TB or 20gn of AR2206H. My "standard" 8x57mm load is 40gn of AR2206H behind the Nosler 180gn BT, but it's still pretty light at 2200fps - ADI max is 47.7gn at 2700fps.

Ive never been game to reduce rifle powders down to those levels mate. Pistol and shotgun powders are designed to work safely at low densities, 38 sp and 44 sp loads as we know might only be 30% case fill for example. Most manufacturers have a load or two at some stage showing pistol powder data in big rifle cases . The same manufacturers expressly advise against such low density with rifle powders though. Im not doubting you get results, just felt I had to mention the official word for any newbs reading.