357 data in a 38 special case

Reloading equipment, methods, load data, powder and projectile information.

357 data in a 38 special case

Post by Blr243 » 16 Jun 2022, 6:10 pm

I found some alliant data tested in a 5.6 inch barrel .. I assume it’s pistol data. 9 grains bullseye is a max load Generating 31700 psi there are other loads of different alliant powder on the same page generating 34000 psi. I tested a dummy case fill and there appears to be a 2 or 3 mm gap between the top of my powder and the base of a jacketed 110 jacketed Proj when it’s seated to the cannelure ... I’ll be useing this in a 16 inch barrelled Rossi lever .... it’s been about 15 years since I reloaded this cal. I remember no dramas at all with heavy loads in shorter cases But now I’m checking something.... TO B CONTINUED
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Re: 357 data in a 38 special case

Post by Blr243 » 16 Jun 2022, 6:18 pm

I got interrupted. So remembering that this data is for 357 in 357 length cases. Is there any potential pressure/ safety issues caused by a bit less empty volume in the case when I use this Data in the shorter 38 special cases ? I tend to think not but there could be something I don’t know of
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Re: 357 data in a 38 special case

Post by bladeracer » 16 Jun 2022, 6:24 pm

Blr243 wrote:I got interrupted. So remembering that this data is for 357 in 357 length cases. Is there any potential pressure/ safety issues caused by a bit less empty volume in the case when I use this Data in the shorter 38 special cases ? I tend to think not but there could be something I don’t know of


Volume and pressure will be the same if you're seating the bullet to .357Mag length.
If you seat it to .38 Special length it will have higher pressure so you'd want to work up to it.
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Re: 357 data in a 38 special case

Post by mickb » 16 Jun 2022, 7:39 pm

As blade says and if I have it right, if you are running a 357 load in a 38 special case all else being equal, the pressures will be higher. Id drop it back, especially as you are into mag pressure ranges already.

Interesting load btw mate, what velocity they post for that?
Last edited by mickb on 16 Jun 2022, 9:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 357 data in a 38 special case

Post by Blr243 » 16 Jun 2022, 8:47 pm

1690 FPS mick it’s from the alliant data that u found for me about a week ago . On the same pages there was info and loads for 125 and 158 pills but when I crunched the numbers regarding muzzle energy the 110 pills at high speed came out in front ... and this data is for a 5.6 inch barrel so I’m expecting better in my carbine. Thanks mick and blade for the info about the situation I was questioning. I’m glad I asked. I’ll seat those pills out further as long as I get a sufficient grip on the walls
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Re: 357 data in a 38 special case

Post by mickb » 16 Jun 2022, 9:59 pm

Ok, yep. Regards that load thought its worth posting Alliants current load data too mate, since the other PDF was an earlier edition.

Online data they list 8.7 grains as max in 357 cases with 110 jacketed bullet. Not sure why they dialled it back a bit. I'd stick to 357 brass myself as apart from the capacity difference I believe it has stronger web than 38 special.

https://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders ... 74&bdid=84
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Re: 357 data in a 38 special case

Post by Blr243 » 17 Jun 2022, 6:40 pm

Thanks Mick. I don’t wanna blow up the Rossi first time I fire it
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Re: 357 data in a 38 special case

Post by dnedative » 20 Jun 2022, 7:36 pm

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showth ... -SPL-Cases

There has been a recent thread and numerous other discussion of Skeeter Skelton’s 357 magnum level load in 38 SPL cases using the 358156 cast bullet seated to the 2nd crimp groove and loaded with 2400 powder. Skeeter loaded these for use in 357 Magnum revolvers back in the ‘60s and used and recommended them through the ‘70s when 357 Magnum cases were hard to come by except from factory ammunition. There was a plethora of 38 SPL cases available as it was the predominant LE cartridge in use throughout the country. The 38 SPL case was readily available to the general public for little cost if any.

Skeeter used the 358156 seated out to its 2nd crimp groove as that was what it was designed for. While seating the 358156 out to the 2nd crimp groove increased the case capacity in the 38 SPL case doing so still did/does not give the 38 SPL the same capacity as with the same bullet seated in the 357 Magnum case to the 1st crimp groove. I started loading for the 38 SPL and 357 Magnum. Skeeter’s load recommendation was to use 13.5 gr of Hercules 2400 but I found using 12.5 gr was a very good load in my Ruger Blackhawk and Colt Trooper. I got my first Oehler chronograph back in the early ‘70s and found the 12.5 gr load of 2400 under the 358156 seated to the 2nd crimp gr in 38 SPL cases often equaled many 357 Magnum velocities out of those revolvers.

There is a lot of discussion and consternation as to whether it is “safe” to use such a load in S&W N frame 38/44 Outdoorsman revolvers and 357 magnum revolvers. I recently conducted a pressure test of the 38 SPL case loaded with a 358156 seated to the 2nd crimp groove loaded over Alliant 2400 to give some guidance for each to make their own decision as to the “safety” of such and whether to use such. I also, just prior to the beginning of that test pressure tested five factory 38 SPL loads and my own standard load with the 358156 over 2400 in 357 magnum cases as a “reference" ammunition.

The picture shows the Contender 357 barrel of 7.94” length with a strain gauge attached and connected to an Oehler M43 PB used for pressure testing. A Ruger Security Six with 6” barrel was used to chronograph my old load previously mentioned. Also shown are the factory rounds tested as a “reference” along with the 38 SPL case with the 358156 seated to the 1st crimp groove, a 38 SPL case with the 358156 seated to the 2nd crimp groove, a 357 Magnum case with the 358156 seated to the 1st crimp groove and a 358156 cast bullet as used.

Click image for larger version. Name: 0104211055.jpg Views: 161 Size: 42.3 KB ID: 274839

There are several things we should remember and understand. The first is the SAAMI MAP for the 38 SPL is 17,000 psi, the MPLM is 17,500 psi and the MPSM is 18,300 psi. The SAAMI MAP for the 38 SPL +P is 20,000 psi, the MPLM is 20,600 psi and the MPSM is 21,500 psi. The SAAMI MAP for the 357 magnum is 35,000 psi, the MPLM is 36,100 psi and the MPSM is 37800 psi. While ammunition manufacturers and current load manuals strive to keep the pressure under the MAP for those cartridges under some circumstance the MPLM and MPSM are still acceptable pressures.

Another thing we must understand and remember is neither pressure measurements or velocity measurements are absolute. Even with the same ammunition tested in the same firearm we find both velocity average and psi average for a test of sufficient sample can vary, sometimes significantly. If we chronograph the same load or, in my case also pressure test the same load, especially at different times under some different conditions we will find there is a +/- range. As long as the test average result falls within that +/- range of either velocity or pressure we can assume all is well. That is how the technicians in the labs do it. It’s also why we don’t see a lot of actual pressure figures for many loads and/or factory ammunition. There is a pretty wide range of not only velocity but also pressure that is acceptable by SAAMI standards.

Thus, the results of different test I post here and elsewhere may not always agree precisely with any other similar test results posted. Additionally, I’ve come to understand that when comparing similar weight cast bullets in any handgun cartridge the seating depth (not to be confused with the OAL) and the bearing surface have more affect on pressure than any small difference in weight. Note in the picture of the two 38 SPL cartridges on the left how the bullet seated to the 2nd crimp groove increases the case capacity. Note also the longer length of the Magnum case even with the bullet seated to the 1st crimp groove still has a larger case capacity.

Click image for larger version. Name: 0104211057.jpg Views: 124 Size: 36.2 KB ID: 274840

The 358156 bullets were cast of COWWs + 2% tin, AC’d with a BHN of 12 – 14 after 14 days. The bullets were sized .358 in a Lyman 450 with Hornady GCs crimped on during sizing/lubing with BAC. The bullets weighed 162 gr fully dressed.

All tests were 10 shots of each load as per SAAMI Standards.

Ambient temperature during the tests ran 52 – 60 degrees. Humidity ran 35% with a barometric pressure hovering around 29.75.

I’ll list the load, the muzzle velocity, the velocity SD/SD [in fps], the pressure, the SD/ES {in psi]

The test of the five factory loads;

Speer 158 lead SWC 38 SPL….874 fps….15/43…..15,500 psi….900/2,400

Remington 158 LRN 38 SPL….899 fps….11/34….15,300 psi…..900/3,000

Remington 125 JHP +P….1149…..28/91….15,200 psi…..700/2,200

Remington 148 HBWC 6138….818 fps….19/63….15,000 psi….1,700/5,800

Remington 148 HBWC R38S3….805 fps….9/23….13,900 psi....600/1700

All the above velocity and pressure test results are consistent [+/-] with previous tests of the same ammunition in the same test barrel.

The test of my standard 357 Magnum load with the 358156, seated to the 1st crimp groove [OAL; 1.597”], using 14.0 gr Alliant 2400 in Winchester 357 magnum cases with CCI 500 primers;

357 Magnum SL….1548 fps….20/75….34,600 psi…..1,800/6,000

Test results of Alliant 2400 from 11.0 to 13.5 gr in ½ gr increments of Alliant 2400 in Winchester 38 SPL cases with the 358156 seated to the 2nd crimp groove [OAL; 1.517”] with CCI 500 primers.

11.0 gr 2400….1275 fps….23/72….24,900 psi….1,400/4,400

11.5 gr 2400….1349 fps…..20/69….28,700 psi….1,500/5,100

12.0 gr 2400….1358 fps….21/69….28,800 psi….800/2,500

12.5 gr 2400….1445 fps….24/73….33,200 psi….200/600

13.0 gr 2400….1486 fps….19/56….35,000 psi….2,500/7,3000

13.5 gr 2400….1531 fps….24/89….37,900 psi….2,100/7,100

Chronograph test (same Oehler M43 PBL) of the 12.5 gr load of 2400 in the 38 SPL cases with the 358156 seated to the 2nd crimp groove in the Ruger Security Six. Average is of 10 rounds in the test.

12.5 gr 2400….1251 fps…..23 fps SD….58 fps ES

Note in the pressure test this load proved to be the most uniform. The velocity loss between the 7.94” Contender solid barrel and the 6” barrel of the Ruger was 175 fps. Giving 1250 fps at 33,200 psi definitely ranks the load right “in there” with most 357 Magnum factory rounds using 150 – 158 gr bullets. I was shooting with the barrel at the ejector rod housing resting on sandbags aiming at 6 o’clock on a 50 yard pistol bullseye. All 10 test shots went into the 10 ring. That’s about as good as I can do anymore. That load was an excellent one many years ago when I was using it and it obviously is today.

As to Skeeter’s load of 13.5 gr, that load is over the SAAMI MAP for the 357 magnum cartridge but still within the MPLM and MPSM. Ballistically it is very close to my standard 357 magnum load of 14 gr but does give higher pressure. That, again is due to the lesser case capacity of the 38 SPL case even with the 358156 seated out to the 2nd crimp groove.



Food for thought
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Re: 357 data in a 38 special case

Post by Blr243 » 20 Jun 2022, 7:43 pm

Very interesting. Thanks very much for taking the time
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