Old powders, your thoughts

[mickb]

A few fellas out there are offloading old pistol powders as they see the prices are up. What are your thoughts fellas on buying second hand powders in old tins? Some of the old ADI type metal tins often have surface rust on them.

The issue I guess is you cant verify someone elses storage environment. If it passes the smell test would you buy it? If so I was thinking one step would be to just load a few minimum loads and chrony and see how it performs next to load data....

Another question is what happens to powders that do ''go bad''. Are they prone to Misfire, hangfire? or do they lose some special coating and suddenly jump 5 places faster on the burn rate chart?

[No1Mk3]

If the contents aren't clumped and smell OK, I would buy them. I have been given tins of AP50 that have surface rust on the outside but were fine inside, the only consideration is price. Although some people think it's fine to pay the rediculous prices being asked ($400 + per kilo) i would rather go without and shoot factory until I could get powder at a fair price. Old powders might do any of the things you mention, including sudden pressure spikes that may damage your gun or youself. Just not worth the risk, turn them into lawn fertilizer.

[Rwd22]

If the contents aren't clumped and smell OK, I would buy them. I have been given tins of AP50 that have surface rust on the outside but were fine inside, the only consideration is price. Although some people think it's fine to pay the rediculous prices being asked ($400 + per kilo) i would rather go without and shoot factory until I could get powder at a fair price. Old powders might do any of the things you mention, including sudden pressure spikes that may damage your gun or youself. Just not worth the risk, turn them into lawn fertilizer.

Personally having bought some private powder recently, it's hard to justify the price (Really I only paid a little over retail, somewhere in the $160/kg region).

But an example of why buying expensive powder can still be cost effective. That $400 1kg bottle of powder, will load me just under 4000 rounds of 9mm.
Even cheap 9mm factory ammo at the minute, $400 is only going to buy me 1100 rounds. So in a way, providing you still have other components, primers, brass and projectiles. Powder could be priced at $1000/kg and it is still relatively cost effective, even more so for the guys loading 357mag, 44mag etc. Where factory ammo is more expensive. Obviously the math drastically changes if you don't have primers or projectiles either

Certainly not validating these guys charging $300-$700/kg, just a look at the reason why people are actually buying it, especially for cartridges that aren't even offered in factory loadings, or available locally at the moment.

[No1Mk3]

G'day Rwd22,
Even if you have primers and projectiles you have to factor in their cost to arrive at a price per round. Add to that the initial brass value and the wear and tear on your press as well as your time value, and the price point starts to equalize fairly quickly. On top of that though, personally speaking only, I refuse to propagate the idea among some people that "supply & demand" justifies exorbitant profiteering. The other risk is that tose who do make or import powder will look around and think "Oh, look how much they're willing to pay, perhaps we should up our price by 50%, permanently", then were are F'd over again.

[mickb]

Im sort of in the same camp mate. While there is nothing illegal or immoral about setting your own prices I find it a little dissappointing Aussies have jumped in that quickly to gouge each other. We rattle on about bringing new shooters and reloaders to the sport any chance we get and charging $200/lb for powder ''just cause we can'' isnt exactly helping those two things occur.

I sold some small pistol primers off the other week to a new starter, could have raped the fella being the LGS has some going now for $190/1000 and some types cant get at all. But I sold them for about $85 for the brick which is only about 10% more than I got them for way back. More fool me? I dont know but I figure if a new shooter and reloader wants to get into the sport that is only going to help our numbers down the track.

[mickb]

..

[Oldbloke]

Here is a utube video about current situation in the industry. And shortages.

https://youtu.be/W5apaZMPcn8

18min

A chat with John from Centerway firearms. Worth watching IMO

[Rwd22]

G'day Rwd22,
Even if you have primers and projectiles you have to factor in their cost to arrive at a price per round. Add to that the initial brass value and the wear and tear on your press as well as your time value, and the price point starts to equalize fairly quickly. On top of that though, personally speaking only, I refuse to propagate the idea among some people that "supply & demand" justifies exorbitant profiteering. The other risk is that tose who do make or import powder will look around and think "Oh, look how much they're willing to pay, perhaps we should up our price by 50%, permanently", then were are F'd over again.

I understand what you're saying, again, I'm not justifying their prices, I'm simply noting why people are paying it, when you can't buy factory ammo for every cartridge and people still want to shoot.

Quick example:
Powder at retail price ($130/kg) it costs me $12.37/box or $24.75/100 to load 9mm.
Powder at inflated price ($500/kg) it costs me $17.00/box or $34.00/100 to load 9mm

Cheapest 9mm factory I can find is $18.25/50 or $36.50/100
Regular 9mm factory is priced around $28.00/50 or $56.00/100

There is a considerable difference between what we can load it for vs what we have to pay when it isn't available as a super specia.

Even at inflated powder prices, we are saving $11.00/box (If I was forced to buy ammo at 'regular' prices).

If you're including your time and wear & tear on the press into your bean counting calculations, then we've moved on from hobby to profession, where of course it doesn't make sense to reload, hell, shooting pistols at paper or steel doesn't make a lot of sense when we get to that point either.

[mickb]

I was doing some math on heavy 44 magnum loads, and the savings with new powder prices are iffy.

A charge of 21-24 grains of 2400 or 2205 etc means 300 reloads a pound of powder. That used to work out at about 20c of powder a shot old prices, now it can push 60-70c. If you buy powder at crazy prices of $200-250 a tin you are paying similar per shot for powder as a 458 win mag load.

A reload( re-using brass, lets say 10 shot case life so brass cost only 7c a shot) and hunting bullets ends up around $1.50 -1.60 or so.

Still cheaper than premium factory ammo but brands like PPU , S&B, magtech, or Geco are cheaper out of the box.,

[Blr243]

The big cardboard drum of red dot shotgun powder I scored nearly a year ago had a may 1992 stamp on the bottom of it ...that’s 30 years .it performs fine

[JimTom]

Mate I have some old metal cans of BM1 and it shoots just fine.

[mickb]

Cheers fellas. Btw when did Mulwex become ADI, anyone know?

[SCJ429]

I think Mulwex was launched in 1978, I have a tin from the 80s which say Mulwex only, then in perhaps the early 90s the tin has Mulwex and also ADI branding. Then in the late 90s?? I am guessing, the Mulwex no longer appears on the tin and only ADI branding remains.

[mickb]

Ok thanks SCJ429 I only ever reloaded with ADI, in the metal cans as they were back then

[dnedative]

I was doing some math on heavy 44 magnum loads, and the savings with new powder prices are iffy.

A charge of 21-24 grains of 2400 or 2205 etc means 300 reloads a pound of powder. That used to work out at about 20c of powder a shot old prices, now it can push 60-70c. If you buy powder at crazy prices of $200-250 a tin you are paying similar per shot for powder as a 458 win mag load.

A reload( re-using brass, lets say 10 shot case life so brass cost only 7c a shot) and hunting bullets ends up around $1.50 -1.60 or so.

Still cheaper than premium factory ammo but brands like PPU , S&B, magtech, or Geco are cheaper out of the box.,

Loading jacketed pistol cartridges has always been expensive, if your shooting lead your back at the 60c range per round.
Killer has always been jacketed bullets, cast lead kills just as good in heavy calibers.

[mickb]

I was doing some math on heavy 44 magnum loads, and the savings with new powder prices are iffy.

A charge of 21-24 grains of 2400 or 2205 etc means 300 reloads a pound of powder. That used to work out at about 20c of powder a shot old prices, now it can push 60-70c. If you buy powder at crazy prices of $200-250 a tin you are paying similar per shot for powder as a 458 win mag load.

A reload( re-using brass, lets say 10 shot case life so brass cost only 7c a shot) and hunting bullets ends up around $1.50 -1.60 or so.

Still cheaper than premium factory ammo but brands like PPU , S&B, magtech, or Geco are cheaper out of the box.,

Loading jacketed pistol cartridges has always been expensive, if your shooting lead your back at the 60c range per round.
Killer has always been jacketed bullets, cast lead kills just as good in heavy calibers.

Point was you could get under the price of factory ammo with jacketed reloads before and now its not certain. The killer now is the powder load for magnum loads is now similar price to a jacketed bullet.

You can load cast for 60c sure, I can load it for 20c, but apples to apples( same powder charges I mentioned for fullhouse loads, maybe 10% less for leads lubricity) you are still at 55-60c powder, plus 12-19c for a primer now, brass life a few cents a reload on top of that, etc.

[dnedative]

Its always been like that though, even when you could get powder it was hardly worth it especially with some of the cheaper Euro offerings, you could pickup a 100 rounds of S&B 357mag with 158gr JHP's for $70. At best you could buy 100 bullets for $50 if you were lucky, for another $20 you got them loaded in new brass with powder and primers.

Local shop still lists the S&B @ $78/100;
158gr Hornady bullets are $63/100 so for $15 you get 100 rounds of new brass, powder, primers - loaded ready to go.
Absolutely no point loading them when its cheaper to buy new.

[mickb]

Its always been like that though, even when you could get powder it was hardly worth it especially with some of the cheaper Euro offerings, you could pickup a 100 rounds of S&B 357mag with 158gr JHP's for $70. At best you could buy 100 bullets for $50 if you were lucky, for another $20 you got them loaded in new brass with powder and primers.

Local shop still lists the S&B @ $78/100;
158gr Hornady bullets are $63/100 so for $15 you get 100 rounds of new brass, powder, primers - loaded ready to go.
Absolutely no point loading them when its cheaper to buy new.

Agree about 357, but 44 can throw 50% more powder and smaller market/less deals. Also I listed brass reload cost as about 5-7c( assumes 10 reloads)

A full house 44 mag load pre covid madness you could get by for about 75-80c assuming reloads at 7c for brass and a cheap bullet(40c speers). .Maybe you could find some Euro ammo cheaper than that...bulk deal or something? I never saw any up my way that cheap anyway.

Now its $1.50 in used brass due to jumps in primer, proj and mostly powder.

[wanneroo]

I'm shooting 1975 Hirtenberger 7.62 NATO and 1981 Swiss 7.5 GP 11 right now.

Gunpowder will last many decades if stored properly in climate stable dry sealed conditions.

If you look at a sample of the powder and it appears intact with no deterioration and no off smell, I'd have no problems using it myself.

I was reading an article a few years ago about a guy who had bought sacks of WW2 surplus rifle powder in the 1950s and used it in competition from the 60s to the 2000s and the article showed him as an old man and was down to his couple pounds of it which at some point he had transferred to an old metal tin. It was still shooting consistently to this day.

[cz515]

I understand what you're saying, again, I'm not justifying their prices, I'm simply noting why people are paying it, when you can't buy factory ammo for every cartridge and people still want to shoot.

Quick example:
Powder at retail price ($130/kg) it costs me $12.37/box or $24.75/100 to load 9mm.
Powder at inflated price ($500/kg) it costs me $17.00/box or $34.00/100 to load 9mm

Cheapest 9mm factory I can find is $18.25/50 or $36.50/100
Regular 9mm factory is priced around $28.00/50 or $56.00/100

There is a considerable difference between what we can load it for vs what we have to pay when it isn't available as a super special.

Even at inflated powder prices, we are saving $11.00/box (If I was forced to buy ammo at 'regular' prices).

If you're including your time and wear & tear on the press into your bean counting calculations, then we've moved on from hobby to profession, where of course it doesn't make sense to reload, hell, shooting pistols at paper or steel doesn't make a lot of sense when we get to that point either.

How much are the projectiles. I assume you put ~160/1000 primers. Mot everyone has buckloads of primers from 2018 and eventually they will finish.

[Rwd22]

How much are the projectiles. I assume you put ~160/1000 primers. Mot everyone has buckloads of primers from 2018 and eventually they will finish.

Projectiles are around $145/1000 at current. And I priced primers around $85/1000. Which I bought some for only recently
That wasn't accounting for most of the primers that I bought at $55/1000 only 12-18months ago.

When my stocks dry up I'll re-evaluate the cost vs factory ammunition, for the moment, it's far less economical for me to shoot factory ammunition exclusively. That doesn't mean that I don't also buy it when it's on a hard-to-beat special.

[mickb]

Projectiles are around $145/1000 at current. And I priced primers around $85/1000. Which I bought some for only recently
That wasn't accounting for most of the primers that I bought at $55/1000 only 12-18months ago

Whats the price of reloading the calibre with all new components?

[Rwd22]

Projectiles are around $145/1000 at current. And I priced primers around $85/1000. Which I bought some for only recently
That wasn't accounting for most of the primers that I bought at $55/1000 only 12-18months ago

Whats the price of reloading the calibre with all new components?

Define all new, like 'new' current prices, or 100% brand new components inc brass?

It comes down to what's available where you are. If you're buying brand new brass and components at current inflated prices to load 9mm, then you must really like your handloads.

I'm making the assumption with most of the math, that people have some components, ie; primers, projectiles and brass. Because they were all available on the shelf for far longer than pistol powder was. My original statement was based around people loading obscure cartridges that aren't available as factory or not currently available in australia, that is where buying pistol powder at ridiculously inflated prices makes sense. I only used 9mm as a personal example, because I know the cost and am very familiar with the current prices of 9mm factory ammunition.

[NAHMINT II]

Unless its a mate whom I know, I would not by others powders old OR new.......
as for ''aged'' powders, I still shoot H 570 (Mouse turds) And H 4831, both over 40 years old........ shooting in 6,5x58 portuguese, .284 win. and .300 Win mag.

gun shows, WHO KNOWS whats in those cans???

[on_one_wheel]

gun shows, WHO KNOWS whats in those cans???

Grandpa's special blend

[mickb]

wrong thread, oops.