SMLE sporter 150gn projectile - data issue

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Re: SMLE sporter 150gn projectile - data issue

Post by in2anity » 12 Aug 2022, 2:10 pm

bladeracer wrote:Is this true though? Why did they bore out the nose caps and float the barrels for competition if it meant they "wouldn't shoot" any more? My competition rifle is bored this way, and it "shoots" okay, but I haven't tried any kind of precision shooting or load development with it yet, still concentrating on the "as issued" rifle.

Spot on. All the good SMLE's I know of, shot amazingly well, by Master grade shooters, at the very least have their nose caps bored an perhaps have a rubber grommet in there. They can't 100% float from the knox forward, because the barrel is too light and contacts inside the stock under recoil, but the bedding is usually altered different from as-issued (there are many different approaches). All of which can be tuned up with a matching load to shoot "acceptably" well for service rifle shooting. Sure is a lot of work - just give me a Swede or Springfield and call it a day :lol:
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Re: SMLE sporter 150gn projectile - data issue

Post by dnedative » 12 Aug 2022, 5:50 pm

bladeracer wrote:
dnedative wrote:No, not a generalisation at all. Take away the stocking, they wont shoot.


Is this true though? Why did they bore out the nose caps and float the barrels for competition if it meant they "wouldn't shoot" any more?



They used Lithgow heavy barrels; Solves the issue
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Re: SMLE sporter 150gn projectile - data issue

Post by dnedative » 12 Aug 2022, 5:54 pm

in2anity wrote:
dnedative wrote:No, not a generalisation at all. Take away the stocking, they wont shoot.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one - I've seen plenty that shoot the same if not better than in their fullwood config. Provided the king screw and draws are intact, and the action centered in the stock - a nice epoxy bead in the correct spot, with a proper scope mount solution, followed by some load development to find where the whip is dampening right at the muzzle, and they will shoot just fine, certainly no worse than as-issued.



That's exactly my point though, if you did all of that to an original one its going to be better again.
If you take a SMLE that shoots 4MOA and lop the forend off your going to add some numbers to that figure, your not going to make it better. To get back to where you might of been had it not been cut is going to require some work and you might end up with something that will only ever really shoot one hand load well.
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Re: SMLE sporter 150gn projectile - data issue

Post by Vince24 » 12 Aug 2022, 10:41 pm

by the way it's the first time I handload flat base projectiles (right now) and it's the pain, you just can't place those projectiles in the case manually before using the bullet seater die.
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Re: SMLE sporter 150gn projectile - data issue

Post by bladeracer » 13 Aug 2022, 4:06 am

Vince24 wrote:by the way it's the first time I handload flat base projectiles (right now) and it's the pain, you just can't place those projectiles in the case manually before using the bullet seater die.


Give it more chamfer, if it's still a problem you might have to flare and crimp.
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Re: SMLE sporter 150gn projectile - data issue

Post by Oldbloke » 14 Aug 2022, 4:46 pm

Vince24 wrote:by the way it's the first time I handload flat base projectiles (right now) and it's the pain, you just can't place those projectiles in the case manually before using the bullet seater die.


Normal. As mentioned just ensure they are chamfered.
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Re: SMLE sporter 150gn projectile - data issue

Post by Vince24 » 23 Aug 2022, 10:32 pm

Thanks for the chamfer advice, but it was too late! Next time, I'll do that.

So I eventually did the ladder test, with 7 steps of 0.5 grains from 38gn to 41gn.

A bit disappointing overall, with a few atrocious loads and a few other loads doing simply as well as the factory PPU, but not clearly better.

Except... there was this load at the 38.5gn step that just managed to put 3 shots in the same hole - and a 4th one quite a bit below, but probably my mistake (and still perfect in windage).

LD 150gn  BF 2206h.jpg
LD 150gn BF 2206h.jpg (614.91 KiB) Viewed 637 times


I hear what you are saying, it's likely to be just a fluke.

But still to be sure, I'll try again this 38.5gn load, this time at 100m with the necked size, trimmed, deburred and chamferred cases!

By the way the ring that was around the barrel has moved while shooting and now moving freely, good news, bad news, who knows ;)))!

(ps: the 4 shot group above is the 38gn load - much less impressive!)

LD 150gn BF 2206h.jpg
LD 150gn BF 2206h.jpg (570.92 KiB) Viewed 637 times
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Re: SMLE sporter 150gn projectile - data issue

Post by Gamerancher » 24 Aug 2022, 12:13 am

Re- Nick Harvey reloading advice, take on board most of the procedure and theory in his book and as soon as you get to the reloading data, cut the rest of the book off and burn it.
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Re: SMLE sporter 150gn projectile - data issue

Post by in2anity » 24 Aug 2022, 8:25 am

Vince24 wrote:Thanks for the chamfer advice, but it was too late! Next time, I'll do that.

So I eventually did the ladder test, with 7 steps of 0.5 grains from 38gn to 41gn.

A bit disappointing overall, with a few atrocious loads and a few other loads doing simply as well as the factory PPU, but not clearly better.

Except... there was this load at the 38.5gn step that just managed to put 3 shots in the same hole - and a 4th one quite a bit below, but probably my mistake (and still perfect in windage).

I hear what you are saying, it's likely to be just a fluke.

But still to be sure, I'll try again this 38.5gn load, this time at 100m with the necked size, trimmed, deburred and chamferred cases!

By the way the ring that was around the barrel has moved while shooting and now moving freely, good news, bad news, who knows ;)))!

(ps: the 4 shot group above is the 38gn load - much less impressive!)


Yeah that's about right for an arbitrary SMLE - without a tonne of bubba-ing and experience on that one particular gun, they just don't generally shoot very consistently. There will be sweet spots in there, but you'll need a much bigger sample size to draw any meaningful conclusions, preferably at 300m+. Nevertheless your 38.5gn is as good if not better than any, so you may as well run it, whatever helps you sleep. My advice; switch to a Mauser! ;)
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Re: SMLE sporter 150gn projectile - data issue

Post by Vince24 » 24 Aug 2022, 10:51 pm

Yep
Have got plenty of military rifles for including Mauser from various countries, I am now set to reload for all of them, will take me the next 20 years;)
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Re: SMLE sporter 150gn projectile - data issue

Post by Vince24 » 17 Sep 2022, 9:52 pm

And to conclude on this topic, I have tried the 38.5gn load at 100m.

First attempt at a 10 consecutive shot series after a bit of mucking around for the sighting in (it shoots too high and on the right, had to use 2 targets as pictured, aiming at the bottom one, landing on the top one), a bit difficult at 7am with the rising sun in my face and changing light conditions.

ref target 100m.jpg
ref target 100m.jpg (569.41 KiB) Viewed 518 times

IMG_4365.jpg
IMG_4365.jpg (463.37 KiB) Viewed 518 times


87 / 100, nothing extraordinary but I did not do better than this with an Swedish M38 that same morning. And that's better than what I achieved with my full-wood SMLE and PPUs!
The shots sprayed on the bottom of the visual were the last 5 of the series of 10.

Anyway it's good enough for me, I am sure I could do better but this target starts to be too small for my eyes at 100m.

This sporter is the cheapest rifle of my collection but I do enjoy shooting it, the shot placement is pretty consistent, mild recoil, good trigger, good sights.

How is that for a heavy barrel!!
IMG_3304.jpg
IMG_3304.jpg (47.9 KiB) Viewed 517 times
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Re: SMLE sporter 150gn projectile - data issue

Post by bladeracer » 17 Sep 2022, 11:00 pm

What diameter is the bull (the 7-ring looks about 200mm)?
I could try mine on the same size bull at 100m.
Mine shoots close to point of aim at 50m, just a little high, which should be close to a 100m zero. I think I've learned all I need to with the scope at this point so it can come off and I'll start practicing with the open sights at 100m and 200m. 100m is normally shot standing unsupported, and 200m is shot sitting unsupported.


Vince24 wrote:And to conclude on this topic, I have tried the 38.5gn load at 100m.

First attempt at a 10 consecutive shot series after a bit of mucking around for the sighting in (it shoots too high and on the right, had to use 2 targets as pictured, aiming at the bottom one, landing on the top one), a bit difficult at 7am with the rising sun in my face and changing light conditions.

ref target 100m.jpg

IMG_4365.jpg


87 / 100, nothing extraordinary but I did not do better than this with an Swedish M38 that same morning. And that's better than what I achieved with my full-wood SMLE and PPUs!
The shots sprayed on the bottom of the visual were the last 5 of the series of 10.

Anyway it's good enough for me, I am sure I could do better but this target starts to be too small for my eyes at 100m.

This sporter is the cheapest rifle of my collection but I do enjoy shooting it, the shot placement is pretty consistent, mild recoil, good trigger, good sights.

How is that for a heavy barrel!!
IMG_3304.jpg
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Re: SMLE sporter 150gn projectile - data issue

Post by Vince24 » 17 Sep 2022, 11:36 pm

[quote="bladeracer"]What diameter is the bull (the 7-ring looks about 200mm)?
I could try mine on the same size bull at 100m.
Mine shoots close to point of aim at 50m, just a little high, which should be close to a 100m zero. I think I've learned all I need to with the scope at this point so it can come off and I'll start practicing with the open sights at 100m and 200m. 100m is normally shot standing unsupported, and 200m is shot sitting unsupported.


Hi Bladeracer

If your 'high at 50m" turns into "zero at 100", it's that your loads are really mild;)

With my loads or with the PPU FMJ, "high at 50m" becomes "super high at 100m", and I have noted with the PPU that they don't really drop at all between 100m and 200m, you can use the same sight setting for 100 and 200.
That being said, this sporter is my only Lee shooting ridiculously high in the most annoying vintage Mauser/Mosin style.
My other Lee shoot quite low, I am often on the 400/500m setting for 100m (except those in 308w which are true to the sight setting).

To answer your question, the 7 ring is 20cm. the diameter of the 10 is 5cm and the diameter of the bull is 2.5cm.
This target is very nice at 50 metres, but slightly too small at 100m I find.

Cheers
Vince

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Re: SMLE sporter 150gn projectile - data issue

Post by bladeracer » 18 Sep 2022, 9:07 am

Just a little high, about 30mm, with 2300fps 174gn loads. I can't say precisely how high it shoots at 50m as I've only fired perhaps a dozen groups with the iron sights, and being an SMLE the groups are not small, but I'm guessing it's hitting about 30mm high. I ran it through a calculator using a guesstimated BC of .450, (assuming 30mm high at 50m) and it should zero around 130m and be about 30mm high at 100m. If it's only 20mm high at 50m it'll zero around 110m and be 10mm high at 100m, if it's 40mm high it'll zero around 150m and be 50mm high at 50m. Either is easily near enough to consider it "zeroed" at 100m due to the probable group sizes being at least 100mm, and more likely closer to 150mm. The bigger issue is how my eyesight places the sight picture over the target I think. I use a diamond around 50mm to shoot open sights at 50m, but it's on the small side really. I'll do some diamonds from 100mm to 200mm to practice on at 100m to determine which is most suitable, but the actual target I'll be aiming at is the big irregular blob of the Figure 11 at 200m and the figure 12 at 100m and 300m, so no precise aiming point that can be seen with my eyes at 100m.

Being around 130mm high at 50m seems ideal for the military competitions I think (my mate's rifle already shoots like this). This would make it about 250mm high at 100m so hold on the bottom edge of the 600mm target at 100m. It would be about 270mm high at 200m so hold about a quarter up from the bottom of the 1200mm target at 200m, and should be about dead-on at 300. This would avoid making any sight adjustments. But I don't even know yet if the competitions are shot at 300 yards or metres, and I think it varies depending on how each range was set out. But ideally I should be able to find a sight setting that avoids making any adjustments out to 300m.

Yes, that period with open sights tended toward the shooter being able to see the target above the sights, so they wanted the bullets to hit well above the aiming point - sort of an "aim at the belt to hit the chest" setup. This was usually only out to about 300m though, then they tended toward hitting point of aim as ranges extended. If you measure your sights and plot them you should see two separate curves, a short-range curve, then it should have a "step" around 300m as it becomes a long-range curve. So you might do better to find a low aiming point on closer-range targets, or just ignore the range settings entirely and gather your own DOPE. Or put some weld on the front sight and file it down to suit the load you've settled on, but then I would expect the longer range settings to hit very low.

But it does seem odd that somebody would sporterise it and not adjust the sights to shoot to point of aim.

I have actually already painted some other military targets that have 200mm centre bulls, I'll take one out next time and see how I go on it.


Vince24 wrote:Hi Bladeracer

If your 'high at 50m" turns into "zero at 100", it's that your loads are really mild;)

With my loads or with the PPU FMJ, "high at 50m" becomes "super high at 100m", and I have noted with the PPU that they don't really drop at all between 100m and 200m, you can use the same sight setting for 100 and 200.
That being said, this sporter is my only Lee shooting ridiculously high in the most annoying vintage Mauser/Mosin style.
My other Lee shoot quite low, I am often on the 400/500m setting for 100m (except those in 308w which are true to the sight setting).

To answer your question, the 7 ring is 20cm. the diameter of the 10 is 5cm and the diameter of the bull is 2.5cm.
This target is very nice at 50 metres, but slightly too small at 100m I find.

Cheers
Vince

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