Any ADI updates on Trail Boss or Pistol Powders?

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Re: Any ADI updates on Trail Boss or Pistol Powders?

Post by rc42 » 15 Dec 2022, 10:09 pm

ADI's update in December 2021 (exactly 1 year ago) stated.

"Benchmark 1, AR2205 – Like AR2225 and AR2218, these propellants only account for a small proportion of our annual demand. We hope to have these propellants available once more in 2022."

It's not looking good for them meeting that 'hope', now it's left with us to hope they have them available in 2023.
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Re: Any ADI updates on Trail Boss or Pistol Powders?

Post by bladeracer » 15 Dec 2022, 10:38 pm

rc42 wrote:ADI's update in December 2021 (exactly 1 year ago) stated.

"Benchmark 1, AR2205 – Like AR2225 and AR2218, these propellants only account for a small proportion of our annual demand. We hope to have these propellants available once more in 2022."

It's not looking good for them meeting that 'hope', now it's left with us to hope they have them available in 2023.


Do we know if they did turn out any small batches of these powders this year?
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Re: Any ADI updates on Trail Boss or Pistol Powders?

Post by b066y » 16 Dec 2022, 1:14 pm

bladeracer wrote:
rc42 wrote:ADI's update in December 2021 (exactly 1 year ago) stated.

"Benchmark 1, AR2205 – Like AR2225 and AR2218, these propellants only account for a small proportion of our annual demand. We hope to have these propellants available once more in 2022."

It's not looking good for them meeting that 'hope', now it's left with us to hope they have them available in 2023.


Do we know if they did turn out any small batches of these powders this year?


They have not responded to my query....soooo there's that.
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Re: Any ADI updates on Trail Boss or Pistol Powders?

Post by bladeracer » 16 Dec 2022, 1:16 pm

b066y wrote:They have not responded to my query....soooo there's that.


My dealer had six or eight bottles of AR2205 early this year, already sold and waiting collection, but it never occurred to me to ask if they were old stock or if there'd been a recent batch produced.
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Re: Any ADI updates on Trail Boss or Pistol Powders?

Post by bigrich » 17 Dec 2022, 6:17 am

bladeracer wrote:
b066y wrote:They have not responded to my query....soooo there's that.


My dealer had six or eight bottles of AR2205 early this year, already sold and waiting collection, but it never occurred to me to ask if they were old stock or if there'd been a recent batch produced.


yeah, 2205 would be nice . it would suit my 357 lever and works really well with 40 vmax in 222 :(
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Re: Any ADI updates on Trail Boss or Pistol Powders?

Post by bigpete » 17 Dec 2022, 11:04 am

I still have a virtually full tub of trailboss and a fair amount of 2205 that I'd be happy to sell at the right price lol
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Re: Any ADI updates on Trail Boss or Pistol Powders?

Post by bigrich » 17 Dec 2022, 11:16 am

bigpete wrote:I still have a virtually full tub of trailboss and a fair amount of 2205 that I'd be happy to sell at the right price lol


is this where you do the "dr evil" thing with your finger and ask for "a million dollars...." ;)
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Re: Any ADI updates on Trail Boss or Pistol Powders?

Post by bigpete » 17 Dec 2022, 12:49 pm

bigrich wrote:
bigpete wrote:I still have a virtually full tub of trailboss and a fair amount of 2205 that I'd be happy to sell at the right price lol


is this where you do the "dr evil" thing with your finger and ask for "a million dollars...." ;)


Mwahahahaha
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Re: Any ADI updates on Trail Boss or Pistol Powders?

Post by Oldbloke » 17 Dec 2022, 4:22 pm

Well, if your coming down my way to steal our crow meat :allegedly: I might buy 500g off you if price is good. (Cheap)
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Re: Any ADI updates on Trail Boss or Pistol Powders?

Post by bigpete » 17 Dec 2022, 6:34 pm

Oldbloke wrote:Well, if your coming down my way to steal our crow meat :allegedly: I might buy 500g off you if price is good. (Cheap)


The price would be reflective of current market price
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Re: Any ADI updates on Trail Boss or Pistol Powders?

Post by rc42 » 17 Dec 2022, 8:51 pm

bladeracer wrote:Do we know if they did turn out any small batches of these powders this year?


A couple of dealers here in Brisbane have received stocks of Benchmark 1 and AR2207 in the last couple of months after them not being available for close to a year. These are the two fastest powders currently available, no use in shotgun or 9mm but they are usable in 38 SP and 357 Mag.

No manufacturing dates on the bottles but I would assume that they are recent production rather than old stock the distributors had forgotten about but without updates from ADI we're just guessing.
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Re: Any ADI updates on Trail Boss or Pistol Powders?

Post by flashman » 22 Dec 2022, 10:25 am

Hi a question ,ADI has 2 lines of manufacturing is that in the same plant ??
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Re: Any ADI updates on Trail Boss or Pistol Powders?

Post by bladeracer » 22 Dec 2022, 11:51 am

flashman wrote:Hi a question ,ADI has 2 lines of manufacturing is that in the same plant ??


Possibly but as they use two different production methods I would think two separate lines. The cost of licencing a second location would be high so I would expect them to be in the same place.
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Re: Any ADI updates on Trail Boss or Pistol Powders?

Post by madang55 » 13 Jun 2023, 7:57 am

Given the last post here was Dec22...So, I've trawled the websites, including ADI. Looks like they've got to the stage of "honestly, we can't tell you". Many of the slower Rifle powders look to be available, but the most sought after powders, pistol and small rifle, are obviously still lagging with every possible furphy put out there. Oh well, back to my rafters.
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Re: Any ADI updates on Trail Boss or Pistol Powders?

Post by bladeracer » 13 Jun 2023, 1:59 pm

madang55 wrote:Given the last post here was Dec22...So, I've trawled the websites, including ADI. Looks like they've got to the stage of "honestly, we can't tell you". Many of the slower Rifle powders look to be available, but the most sought after powders, pistol and small rifle, are obviously still lagging with every possible furphy put out there. Oh well, back to my rafters.


I haven't seen many furphies regarding the problem with their fast powders, they've admitted they screwed up their decision to replace the line with a new line that doesn't work. They can't simply switch back to the old line that did work because it doesn't exist anymore. They are still pumping out as much of the slower powders as they can, including limited runs of AR2205 and AR2207, which are the fastest they can currently produce, and at reasonable prices still.

The issue is what it will cost them to either try to fix the line so it does work, or replace it again with a new line. Both are expensive decisions that are likely decided by the market and/or their current production pace. Do they hire more staff to address the problem or do they redirect current assets into fixing the issue and perhaps reduce their current output to do that? They just survived a massive loss due to a major mistake with this, are they willing to risk another mistake so soon? Maybe they've decided that decision can't be made until they have recouped the losses of the first mistake? I'd like to think the government might step in with a large contract to supply all the ADF/Police pistol ammo for the next ten years, perhaps that might assist their decision making and help the local economy as well, but would probably upset the US suppliers, and we can't have that.

What it perhaps has done is artificially inflated the prices people are willing to pay for the faster powders, so maybe if they were to market these powders at $200/kg for example then they might go ahead sooner than if they were marketing at the same prices as the rifle powders.

I would be interested to know, of the people that were onboard with the first imports of Lovex, when no pricing had been tabled, how many of them opted out when the prices were finally known once it had landed here - from memory $420-odd per kilo (plus you had to buy a few hundred dollars worth of bullets to qualify to purchase powder) - after paying around $120/kg for their powders before that. There was no shortage of customers for these powders at that price because there was a very limited supply.

There is still one source of cheapish but readily-available fast powders, inside bulk field 12ga. loads. I haven't bought 12ga. since I started loading them myself but a quick Google puts them around the $120-$130 mark currently. Charges vary but are generally around the 20-22gn in my experience, so a case gets you about 5000-5500gn of powder or about a third of a kilo, and enough for perhaps 1200rds of pistol ammo.
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Re: Any ADI updates on Trail Boss or Pistol Powders?

Post by madang55 » 13 Jun 2023, 10:15 pm

Ah...the voice of reason.....but...if I reclaim a heap of 12g powder...where do I find safe data? I have 2 cases of Win 12g trap to cut open...
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Re: Any ADI updates on Trail Boss or Pistol Powders?

Post by bladeracer » 13 Jun 2023, 10:51 pm

madang55 wrote:Ah...the voice of reason.....but...if I reclaim a heap of 12g powder...where do I find safe data? I have 2 cases of Win 12g trap to cut open...


Experimentation, but all shotshell powders are going to be within a fairly narrow window of burn rates, start on the lowish side and work up.
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Re: Any ADI updates on Trail Boss or Pistol Powders?

Post by madang55 » 14 Jun 2023, 7:19 pm

Hmmmmmmm
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Re: Any ADI updates on Trail Boss or Pistol Powders?

Post by madang55 » 19 Jun 2023, 5:38 pm

So, to find out if they had data for any other powders, I sent an email via the "contact us" portal. I did say I was asking because they couldn't supply me the only powder for which they had given me data. Their email must be down because the email was basically returned to sender as undeliverable...to their own email address. Can not for the life of me find a phone number to call so I can sit on hold for an hour or two either.
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Re: Any ADI updates on Trail Boss or Pistol Powders?

Post by bladeracer » 19 Jun 2023, 8:00 pm

madang55 wrote:So, to find out if they had data for any other powders, I sent an email via the "contact us" portal. I did say I was asking because they couldn't supply me the only powder for which they had given me data. Their email must be down because the email was basically returned to sender as undeliverable...to their own email address. Can not for the life of me find a phone number to call so I can sit on hold for an hour or two either.


I would think if they had data it would be on their webpage. If you can't get the powders they do list then try searching forums under their US brand names. If that doesn't help then you'll have to experiment and come up with your own data.
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Re: Any ADI updates on Trail Boss or Pistol Powders?

Post by madang55 » 20 Jun 2023, 12:45 pm

Maybe the SSAA and other relevant organisations might like to wade in on the subject. Maybe there are other manufacturers out there who might like a piece of the Australian market and just need a serious invite.That is of course unless ADI are protected in any way? Are they even a wholly Australian owned company? I think some buttons need to be pushed. If its left too long, there may be a serious recovery problem which will lead to a loss of participants, and a loss of our value to the Australian economy?
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Re: Any ADI updates on Trail Boss or Pistol Powders?

Post by Jackaroo » 20 Jun 2023, 2:58 pm

madang55 wrote:Maybe the SSAA and other relevant organisations might like to wade in on the subject.


It seems like they would wouldn't it huh?

Alls very quiet while the Aussie shooting sports go down the proverbial gurgler.
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Re: Any ADI updates on Trail Boss or Pistol Powders?

Post by Jackaroo » 20 Jun 2023, 3:08 pm

madang55 wrote: Maybe there are other manufacturers out there who might like a piece of the Australian market and just need a serious invite. That is of course unless ADI are protected in any way?


Whoever is bringing in the Vectan shipments I hope they have been very well remunerated for their troubles and its worth it for them to do tenfold the amount and keep bringing it in. I hope its hurting NIOA but unfortunately I doubt it, I've never thought NIOA was for the Aussie shooter and have way to much of a stranglehold on the market.

I was able to get 20 kilos of different Vectan (all pistol suitable), keeping 5kg for myself and the others I load for and sharing 15kg out to other club members.
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Re: Any ADI updates on Trail Boss or Pistol Powders?

Post by deye243 » 20 Jun 2023, 4:48 pm

Jackaroo wrote:I was able to get 20 kilos of different Vectan (all pistol suitable), keeping 5kg for myself and the others I load for and sharing 15kg out to other club members.

I did the same with 22lb I only kept 6lb .
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Re: Any ADI updates on Trail Boss or Pistol Powders?

Post by 1886 » 20 Jun 2023, 5:32 pm

madang55 wrote:...........Are they even a wholly Australian owned company?
Thales Australia formerly known as ADI is a subsidiary of the French Thales Group. Maybe we should have brought their submarines !!!!
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Re: Any ADI updates on Trail Boss or Pistol Powders?

Post by madang55 » 21 Jun 2023, 1:02 pm

1886 wrote:
madang55 wrote:...........Are they even a wholly Australian owned company?
Thales Australia formerly known as ADI is a subsidiary of the French Thales Group. Maybe we should have brought their submarines !!!!

Gawd!!!
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Re: Any ADI updates on Trail Boss or Pistol Powders?

Post by Larry » 21 Jun 2023, 1:08 pm

Now even worse is Nestle equipment wearing out resulting in the end of fantails. Again equipment to expensive to replace.
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Re: Any ADI updates on Trail Boss or Pistol Powders?

Post by madang55 » 23 Jun 2023, 12:17 pm

So, what we need then is someone with weeks of spare time to write an on-line petition. Find out how much $ is spent by shooters on re-loading components, i.e. $ going into the Aust economy. (was being spent, cos we got nothing to spend it on now). Break the data up into "per state" and Then send the petition to the Sporting Minister of each state and ask why we didn't buy the submarines from the Fromage munching s.......r m.....s. All we are now is prisoner to the ever increasing price of factory ammunition. Must be tonnes of brass lying around.
For e.g. The Winchester 350 Legend Deer Season a few weeks ago was around $26 is now $46. I wasn't going to bother to re-load when I researched and purchased the rifle, but now...?
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Re: Any ADI updates on Trail Boss or Pistol Powders?

Post by bladeracer » 23 Jun 2023, 1:17 pm

madang55 wrote:So, what we need then is someone with weeks of spare time to write an on-line petition. Find out how much $ is spent by shooters on re-loading components, i.e. $ going into the Aust economy. (was being spent, cos we got nothing to spend it on now). Break the data up into "per state" and Then send the petition to the Sporting Minister of each state and ask why we didn't buy the submarines from the Fromage munching s.......r m.....s. All we are now is prisoner to the ever increasing price of factory ammunition. Must be tonnes of brass lying around.
For e.g. The Winchester 350 Legend Deer Season a few weeks ago was around $26 is now $46. I wasn't going to bother to re-load when I researched and purchased the rifle, but now...?


Agreed, though I would think a powder manufacturer would probably have a closer idea of the market than even we could put together ourselves. We can do a survey but it will still be based in conjecture, whereas their market data specifically tells them how much of which types of powders we _actually_ use. Ammo importers probably have similar data since that's how they determine how much of which types of ammo they want to import.

For me, I don't even look at prices of factory ammo as I don't expect to ever buy any. I have powders and primers. I have a very wide selection of bullets across almost all calibers from .17-cal to .45-cal. I also have 50+ bullet moulds, and am happy to powdercoat, paper-patch, or sabot cast or jacketed bullets up to fit something unusual. I have heaps of pistol and rifle brass across a wide selection of the more common chamberings, many of which can be used to make brass for other things. And worst, case I'll machine brass and bullets from scratch if I really have to. Lack of ammo won't prevent me from shooting whatever I want to shoot.
Last edited by bladeracer on 23 Jun 2023, 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Any ADI updates on Trail Boss or Pistol Powders?

Post by deye243 » 23 Jun 2023, 4:35 pm

1886 wrote:
madang55 wrote:...........Are they even a wholly Australian owned company?
Thales Australia formerly known as ADI is a subsidiary of the French Thales Group. Maybe we should have brought their submarines !!!!

f*** that they probably have an auto surface and white flag protocol when facing an enemy.
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