ADI data for a 140gn pill in 6.5x55

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Re: ADI data for a 140gn pill in 6.5x55

Post by Vince24 » 11 Nov 2022, 1:43 pm

As said above, the reason to go for less of a faster powder is to reduce recoil to the minimum where accuracy is a secondary priority.

In my case for those 140 pills this is to shoot standing unsupported at 100m at the military club.
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Re: ADI data for a 140gn pill in 6.5x55

Post by Vince24 » 11 Nov 2022, 1:49 pm

As said above, the reason to go for less of a faster powder is to reduce recoil to the minimum where accuracy is a secondary priority.

In my case for those 140 pills this is to shoot standing unsupported at 100m at the military club.

@Bladeracer: thanks for your detailed explanation. I was under the impression that there was a bigger difference between 2206H and 2208 but I was proven wrong!
there seems to be a bigger difference between 2208 and 2209 though.
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Re: ADI data for a 140gn pill in 6.5x55

Post by in2anity » 11 Nov 2022, 1:59 pm

Vince24 wrote:As said above, the reason to go for less of a faster powder is to reduce recoil to the minimum where accuracy is a secondary priority.

In my case for those 140 pills this is to shoot standing unsupported at 100m at the military club.


Nuthin wrong with 06H in the swede mate - I don't run my swede that often, so I'm not rushing out to buy 09 just for it.

This is the only only handload i ever made - min listed 06H under the 140gr Taipain - load completely arbitrary and not known to be accurate. So like an "inner" group? maybe 4moa at 300m... completely as-issued, i.e. dovetail sights.

swede.jpg
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At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: ADI data for a 140gn pill in 6.5x55

Post by bladeracer » 11 Nov 2022, 2:35 pm

Vince24 wrote:As said above, the reason to go for less of a faster powder is to reduce recoil to the minimum where accuracy is a secondary priority.

In my case for those 140 pills this is to shoot standing unsupported at 100m at the military club.

@Bladeracer: thanks for your detailed explanation. I was under the impression that there was a bigger difference between 2206H and 2208 but I was proven wrong!
there seems to be a bigger difference between 2208 and 2209 though.


Yes, a huge difference in density stepping up to AR2209. In my mate's Rem700 we ran 56gn under the 180gn InterLock and we couldn't get any more in the case - they were well compressed. I seat the 178gn BTHP .127" longer in my M1903-A3 so I can get another grain in there.
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Re: ADI data for a 140gn pill in 6.5x55

Post by Vince24 » 11 Nov 2022, 8:03 pm

And the funny thing.

I have just gone on the Speer data rifle site to look for the projectile I want to use. The Speer 1441 140gr.
they don't list 2208, but they list Varget which is supposed to be equivalent.
Their starting load is 31gr, their maximum load is 33gr, which is under the starting load from the ADI data!

https://reloadingdata.speer.com/Downloa ... corpdf.pdf

Seriously?

Then when select "modern action", they list loads from 35 to 37gn

They really think the swedish steel allow was 50% suggar;))))
Or they have very risk-adverse-lawyers ;))
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Re: ADI data for a 140gn pill in 6.5x55

Post by deye243 » 11 Nov 2022, 8:47 pm

Vince24 wrote:And the funny thing.

I have just gone on the Speer data rifle site to look for the projectile I want to use. The Speer 1441 140gr.
they don't list 2208, but they list Varget which is supposed to be equivalent.
Their starting load is 31gr, their maximum load is 33gr, which is under the starting load from the ADI data!

https://reloadingdata.speer.com/Downloa ... corpdf.pdf

Seriously?

Then when select "modern action", they list loads from 35 to 37gn

They really think the swedish steel allow was 50% suggar;))))
Or they have very risk-adverse-lawyers ;))

Well if you know anything about a 96 mauser you wouldn't put a modern load anywhere near 1 as by today's standards they are a very weak action even the 98 leaves a little to be desired .
And ar2208 is not just the equivalent to varget it is exactly the same powder made here in Australia and sold the Hodgson as they actually make none of their own powders the brand Hodgson it's just a reseller
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Re: ADI data for a 140gn pill in 6.5x55

Post by Vince24 » 11 Nov 2022, 11:34 pm

yeah yeah I know the 96, 2 lungs, theoritically not as strong as the 98... but built with excellent steel, so maybe safer than a 98k built in 1945 by slaves under carpet bombings;)

And I don't think there are many stories of 96 having not withstood regular powder charges and plenty of people loading them with 43gr of 2209 or 46gr of 2213sc which is a lot more pressure than the ridiculously mild 31-33 gr 2208 of the Speer table. 31gr in a 6.5, that's a load density of 66%.

Anyway, have just prepared my rounds for a quick load development, 25 rounds, ranging from 33 gr to 36.5gr of 2208 (ADI table), by groups of 4 projectiles per load + 1 spare for the first cold shot. OAL 3.0.

Will shoot them in December, I'll let you know if my swede disliked the 2208!
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Re: ADI data for a 140gn pill in 6.5x55

Post by LawrenceA » 12 Nov 2022, 6:05 am

Vince24 wrote:And the funny thing.

I have just gone on the Speer data rifle site to look for the projectile I want to use. The Speer 1441 140gr.
they don't list 2208, but they list Varget which is supposed to be equivalent.
Their starting load is 31gr, their maximum load is 33gr, which is under the starting load from the ADI data!

https://reloadingdata.speer.com/Downloa ... corpdf.pdf

Seriously?

Then when select "modern action", they list loads from 35 to 37gn

They really think the swedish steel allow was 50% suggar;))))
Or they have very risk-adverse-lawyers ;))


The Krag Jorgensen in 6.5x55 was sent to the states and it is a much weaker action than the 96 which is why they are so risk averse.
Having said that the Swede is theoretically not as strong as a 98 and so on but what the 96 lacked in design it allowed for in quality steel compared to some dodgy 98's.
One well placed shot is all it takes.
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Re: ADI data for a 140gn pill in 6.5x55

Post by Billo » 12 Nov 2022, 9:45 am

96's bolts can be ported to help with naughty pressures :lol: :thumbsup:

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Re: ADI data for a 140gn pill in 6.5x55

Post by bigrich » 13 Nov 2022, 4:43 pm

Hey guys,I’ve had success in my tikka t3x with 140’s and 2209 today. The following data was worked up in my modern rifle and in no way am I suggesting anyone try this in theirs. I worked up to the “Nathan foster” load of 46.5 gn of 2209 and today played with COL with 140 nosler bt’s and hornady 140sst’s. I’m down to.4’s with the sst and a little tuning may improve it more. For a hunting rifle I’m pretty happy with it but
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Re: ADI data for a 140gn pill in 6.5x55

Post by northdude » 13 Nov 2022, 5:46 pm

looking good my t3 seems to prefer 120gr pills
22 hornets and most things 6.5
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Re: ADI data for a 140gn pill in 6.5x55

Post by Vince24 » 14 Nov 2022, 8:54 pm

Nice 3 shot group Bigrich - I assume 100m?

46.5gn of 2209 behind a 140gr pill, probably fine in a Tikka, but I would not dare in my Swedes!

That must be in the 60,000psi! or more!

Not that the Swedes need that much, see a 4 shot group in my scoped 1899 Swede, that's only 43gr

LD Hdy 140 HPBT 2209 43gn.jpg
LD Hdy 140 HPBT 2209 43gn.jpg (610.99 KiB) Viewed 1567 times


and then a 10 shot group with 42gr - with some scope adjustments after the first few shots.

10s Hdy 140hpbt 2209 42gn.jpg
10s Hdy 140hpbt 2209 42gn.jpg (585.45 KiB) Viewed 1567 times
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Re: ADI data for a 140gn pill in 6.5x55

Post by in2anity » 14 Nov 2022, 8:55 pm

There yu go Vince. That’ll do.
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: ADI data for a 140gn pill in 6.5x55

Post by Vince24 » 14 Nov 2022, 9:00 pm

OK, that would explain.
It's a bit annoying when just because of a few uncommon rifles, some companies get super nervous and publish data that is clearly way too mild.
But it is what it is. It seems to me that US companies are particularly nervous on that field, I was reading the other re how the 8x57 factory loads in the USA are super mild compared to the european ones, they're just affraid of someone using something a bit hot in his Gevehr 88...

"The Krag Jorgensen in 6.5x55 was sent to the states and it is a much weaker action than the 96 which is why they are so risk averse.
Having said that the Swede is theoretically not as strong as a 98 and so on but what the 96 lacked in design it allowed for in quality steel compared to some dodgy 98's.[/quote]
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Re: ADI data for a 140gn pill in 6.5x55

Post by Vince24 » 14 Nov 2022, 9:03 pm

in2anity wrote:There yu go Vince. That’ll do.



Yep but that was with the 2209, a scope and quality Horndady BTHP 140. A classic combo.

Being of an adventurous mood I will now go with 2208 (33 to 36.5gr) and Speer for the cheap military iron sight shoot :roll:
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Re: ADI data for a 140gn pill in 6.5x55

Post by bladeracer » 15 Nov 2022, 12:06 am

Seating depth greatly effects pressure, if you can seat the bullet longer you can get more powder in without increasing the pressure. You can't read charge weights and pressures without including cartridge lengths.

Vince24 wrote:OK, that would explain.
It's a bit annoying when just because of a few uncommon rifles, some companies get super nervous and publish data that is clearly way too mild.
But it is what it is. It seems to me that US companies are particularly nervous on that field, I was reading the other re how the 8x57 factory loads in the USA are super mild compared to the european ones, they're just affraid of someone using something a bit hot in his Gevehr 88...

"The Krag Jorgensen in 6.5x55 was sent to the states and it is a much weaker action than the 96 which is why they are so risk averse.
Having said that the Swede is theoretically not as strong as a 98 and so on but what the 96 lacked in design it allowed for in quality steel compared to some dodgy 98's.
[/quote]
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Re: ADI data for a 140gn pill in 6.5x55

Post by bigrich » 15 Nov 2022, 4:54 am

Vince24 wrote:Nice 3 shot group Bigrich - I assume 100m?

46.5gn of 2209 behind a 140gr pill, probably fine in a Tikka, but I would not dare in my Swedes!

That must be in the 60,000psi! or more!

Not that the Swedes need that much, see a 4 shot group in my scoped 1899 Swede, that's only 43gr

LD Hdy 140 HPBT 2209 43gn.jpg


and then a 10 shot group with 42gr - with some scope adjustments after the first few shots.

10s Hdy 140hpbt 2209 42gn.jpg


That’s some nice shooting from your old Swede. Accuracy wise, milder loads would probably work very well in my tikka. The primers in fired rounds look the same as my 30-06 shooting near the max end of adi load data. Cases extract easy as well as the bolt operation. The Swede loaded to it’s full potential is a fairly flat shooting “do all” round for Australia. Projectile performance is brought to its full potential with decent speed. I’ve loaded for the Swede before, so I know what it’s capable off. I saw a fella shooting a early 1900’s gustaf at my local range years ago who was loading 47gn of 2209 in that rifle with bullets seated way out . As blade said, seating out decreases pressure and gives more case capacity.
My 9.3x62 has extremely generous free bore just like the Swede, and I have worked up loads accordingly. Buffaloes and other large critters in the north don’t like it much :D
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Re: ADI data for a 140gn pill in 6.5x55

Post by Vince24 » 18 Dec 2022, 3:22 pm

So just as a feedback I have done this very quick load development in 2208 with the Speer HotCor for a cheap combo to shoot at the club ($0.70 a shot).
Load tested: 33-34-35-36-36.5

Pictures below, groups of 4.
50m, open sights.

The top group on the second picture is a test group, with the luxury package: ELD-M with 46 grains of 2213SC.

LD Speer HC 140.jpg
LD Speer HC 140.jpg (77.61 KiB) Viewed 1352 times

LD Speer HC 140+ ELD M.jpg
LD Speer HC 140+ ELD M.jpg (76.49 KiB) Viewed 1352 times


Conclusion:

33 and 34 grains were terrible. The necks of the cases were all black with powder residues. Seriously underpowered I would say.
35 grains was perfect: 3 impacts touching each other, the 4th one not far.
36 and 36.5 grains were not bad, but with more recoil.

So yes, 2208 can work very fine on the 6.5!

Always amazed at the differences you can see from one load to another.
Sometimes I wonder if it's just variations in performance of the shooter (his eyes!), but I see the same differences from one load to another when doing a load development with a scoped rifle and front/rear rests, so the selection of the powder load clearly plays a pivotal role in the accuracy.

So I am settled on the 35 grains load, next stage is to test at 100m and then at the military shoots!

Interesting fact: you can see that the groups move consistently towards the left as the powder load increases from 33 to 36.5gn. And I haven't done any windage adjustments. Strange?!

NB: the luxury load ELD-M / 2213SC (top group in the second picture) did not do better than the Speer in that 50m test, so I will shoot the Speer at 100/200 and keep the ELD for 300m.
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