Electronic scales

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Electronic scales

Post by bluehorse » 26 Nov 2022, 3:39 pm

Be wary of electronic scales . I have had a bad experience with varying readings and similar . Myelectonics sit in the rubbish pile . And I prefer to use tried and true mechanical balance type . even though the flat bottom pans can give inaccurate readings . Answer is to put a dome in centre of pan using a ball pein hammer of suitable size and try again . lol
My electronics were intermittent without a pattern to bad readings . So Beware !!
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Re: Electronic scales

Post by deye243 » 26 Nov 2022, 4:28 pm

Totally agree only way that I would ever use electronic scales is if I had and I can't remember the brand the laboratory scales that i used to use in a shift laboritory in the cement industry they weigh to about 16 decimal places .
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Re: Electronic scales

Post by Lazarus » 26 Nov 2022, 4:43 pm

I have some physical issues from a brain injury and for some reason, balance scales just don't work for me.
Ohaus Scout SPX is an entry level pharmaceutical grade scale accurate to 0.001g I've been considering, but at $700, it's not a priority.

I've been using a cheapo Frankford Arsenal scale and it correlates as close as needs be with my Lee balance scale and I find it less problematic to use.

Horses for courses though, there are no doubt traditionalists who swear by what works for them.

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Re: Electronic scales

Post by No1Mk3 » 26 Nov 2022, 6:14 pm

Cost is the major factor in electronic sales, you really do get what you pay for. You can be lucky and get a cheapish set that work well, as Lazarus did, or you can get rubbish as the OP did. I have a cheap Hornady set that check well that I use for quick reference work, but I use the balance beam for reloading. Like deye243 I have used lab scales at work, amazingly accurate and several thousand dollars plus calibration every 6 months at several hundred dollars, not really practical for the home reloader.
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Re: Electronic scales

Post by Tiger650 » 26 Nov 2022, 6:21 pm

bluehorse wrote:Be wary of electronic scales . I have had a bad experience with varying readings and similar . Myelectonics sit in the rubbish pile . And I prefer to use tried and true mechanical balance type . even though the flat bottom pans can give inaccurate readings . Answer is to put a dome in centre of pan using a ball pein hammer of suitable size and try again . lol
My electronics were intermittent without a pattern to bad readings . So Beware !!
,

Bugger me Bluehorse I never did think of the flat pan thing which you speak of, I am both impressed and enlightened. :thumbsup:
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Re: Electronic scales

Post by Wm.Traynor » 26 Nov 2022, 7:07 pm

bluehorse wrote: the flat bottom pans can give inaccurate readings . Answer is to put a dome in centre of pan using a ball pein hammer of suitable size and try again .


What exactly is that about, bluehorse? Why does one work but not the other?
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Re: Electronic scales

Post by straightshooter » 27 Nov 2022, 9:39 am

bluehorse wrote:Be wary of electronic scales . I have had a bad experience with varying readings and similar . Myelectonics sit in the rubbish pile . And I prefer to use tried and true mechanical balance type . even though the flat bottom pans can give inaccurate readings . Answer is to put a dome in centre of pan using a ball pein hammer of suitable size and try again . lol
My electronics were intermittent without a pattern to bad readings . So Beware !!


I can guarantee that a ubiquitous mobile phone was nearby.
Every now and then your mobile will transmit a strong "I am here" signal to a mobile phone tower.
If your electronic scale is inadequately screened against the RF signal then your current reading and possibly subsequent readings will be upset and be in error.
Both my Dillon scale and my Lyman dispenser get affected if a mobile is switched on nearby and will require the cal 0 button to be pressed.
I do a cal 0 every tenth round when reloading anyway.
Simple answer is to make sure all nearby mobile phones are switched off when using an electronic scale.
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Re: Electronic scales

Post by bladeracer » 27 Nov 2022, 12:14 pm

I noticed my GemPro250 was giving me odd numbers a few times but I worked out the huge tesla battery and invertor mounted on the other side of the cavity wall (about 600mm away) was probably making its life difficult. Keep the scale away from all electrical stuff if you can.


straightshooter wrote:
bluehorse wrote:Be wary of electronic scales . I have had a bad experience with varying readings and similar . Myelectonics sit in the rubbish pile . And I prefer to use tried and true mechanical balance type . even though the flat bottom pans can give inaccurate readings . Answer is to put a dome in centre of pan using a ball pein hammer of suitable size and try again . lol
My electronics were intermittent without a pattern to bad readings . So Beware !!


I can guarantee that a ubiquitous mobile phone was nearby.
Every now and then your mobile will transmit a strong "I am here" signal to a mobile phone tower.
If your electronic scale is inadequately screened against the RF signal then your current reading and possibly subsequent readings will be upset and be in error.
Both my Dillon scale and my Lyman dispenser get affected if a mobile is switched on nearby and will require the cal 0 button to be pressed.
I do a cal 0 every tenth round when reloading anyway.
Simple answer is to make sure all nearby mobile phones are switched off when using an electronic scale.
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Re: Electronic scales

Post by Oldbloke » 27 Nov 2022, 1:06 pm

" noticed my GemPro250 was giving me odd numbers a few times but I worked out the huge tesla battery and invertor mounted on the other side of the cavity wall (about 600mm away) was probably making its life difficult. Keep the scale away from all electrical stuff if you can."


Its the EMF that causes the problem. You may find that a simple reflector or Faraday cage will fix it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro ... _shielding

OR simply putting more distance between the battery and the scales.
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Re: Electronic scales

Post by bladeracer » 27 Nov 2022, 1:54 pm

Oldbloke wrote:" noticed my GemPro250 was giving me odd numbers a few times but I worked out the huge tesla battery and invertor mounted on the other side of the cavity wall (about 600mm away) was probably making its life difficult. Keep the scale away from all electrical stuff if you can."


Its the EMF that causes the problem. You may find that a simple reflector or Faraday cage will fix it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro ... _shielding

OR simply putting more distance between the battery and the scales.


Yep, I moved it to the other side of the room, maybe seven metres away. Seems okay there.
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Re: Electronic scales

Post by on_one_wheel » 27 Nov 2022, 4:33 pm

They can be great for quick measurements like batching cases and projectiles but I to have witnessed massive misreads.
EMF was a good suggestion to inaccuracy.
They will also suffer when the battery gets low.

I also prefer to take my time and use beam scales for powder charge. I'm happy to take my time.

If I were to use electronic scales for powder, I'd use a scoop tha holds close to the charge weight that way I'd notice if a weight didn't measure well.
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Re: Electronic scales

Post by Vince24 » 27 Nov 2022, 10:12 pm

I have been using the Frankford Arsenal electronic balance (a very cheap one) for 1 year now.
I weight each and every powder charge :crazy:

I have been very happy with it. It works at the nearest 0.1 grain, in principle. :)

And it works very well in that 0.1 / 0.2 grain range - sufficient for my shooting.

I find it needs a bit of warming up and sometimes you know it's not giving you the right measure (because you have added 5 granules with the trickler and it still does not want to display the new +0.1 grain weight! - then you add a 6th grain and bang, the new weight display is 0.2gr higher :evil: ), so at moments you have to fiddle around a little bit (take the measure again) or wait 5 seconds for the new weight to be displayed - but overall very happy with that scale for my purpose.

the scale is just under the WIFI box in the garage. Does not seem to be massively disturbed. I keep my phone in another room when reloading.
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Re: Electronic scales

Post by in2anity » 28 Nov 2022, 9:06 am

There are so many anecdotes here. Many electronic scales do exactly what they advertise on their box. And that is, a +/- 0.1gr throw variance which you get the opportunity to discard. And I put it too you - what do you really think a +0.1gr variance effect has on your group?

Let me tell you, if you have a fine-tuned load for a given rifle (aka the "primary node"), a 0.1gr variance won't do much to your group.

Now, if you are shooting competition benchrest, or competition F-class, maybe the SD will be a fraction high for your likings. MAYBE. Put your hand up if you fall into that category? Anyway successfully reading crap wind is way more important than such a small vertical discrepancy.

I was once told by a palma rifle commonwealth silver medalist that "provided all else is tuned, a 0.1gr variance has little effect on a TR shooter's ability to shoot a possible and better". Point is, maybe we are splitting hairs here people. :unknown:
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Re: Electronic scales

Post by straightshooter » 28 Nov 2022, 11:11 am

There is a widespread delusion about the absolute accuracy of any instrument with a digital readout.
Irrespective of the fundamental accuracy or repeatability of the instrument the reading is always +- the least significant digit.
Now a further problem with inexpensive digital scales that measure down to 0.1 grains is the resolution of the load cells employed. They have to be cheap enough to make the instrument saleable. The easy way out is for manufacturers to utilise the load cells intended for use in kitchen scales which typically have an accurate resolution of 1 gram.
In the powder scales the signal is "down in the noise" so a data smoothing algorithmic kludge is utilised which works fairly well but tends to exhibit the undocumented feature described by Vince24 above.
By the way a little realism is beneficial when considering variability due to powder weight. Consider a typical Palma load of 47 grains and a variation of 0.1 grain. That is a variation of about 0.2% which is negligible when all the other variables in firing a cartridge are taken into consideration.
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Re: Electronic scales

Post by in2anity » 28 Nov 2022, 11:15 am

straightshooter wrote:By the way a little realism is beneficial when considering variability due to powder weight. Consider a typical Palma load of 47 grains and a variation of 0.1 grain. That is a variation of about 0.2% which is negligible when all the other variables in firing a cartridge are taken into consideration.

Indeed SS. I want to name drop, but I detest name droppers. Whether your load is 45.7gr vs 45.8gr will be of little consequence even at 900m. All else tuned up nicely, yhe group will be a waterline disrupted overwhelmingly by windage fluctuation. That's the hard part - picking those.
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Re: Electronic scales

Post by on_one_wheel » 28 Nov 2022, 4:54 pm

I doubt anyone would be concerned with a + - .1 or .2 grain discrepancy when using an electric scale, that's pretty good accuracy in my book however when they completely wig out and read several full grains under or over that's when you end up loosing confidence in them.
Iv had my hornady electric scale do funny things, like when you pour the scoop full in, start trickling away and the weight display doesn't move beyond what the scoop full weighed.


Another great point by vince24 about allowing scales to warm up, I've read that one somewhere here before :thumbsup:
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Re: Electronic scales

Post by Vince24 » 28 Nov 2022, 9:50 pm

In my case the reason why I weight every powder charge is NOT that I think that 0.1gr will make a difference on the group.

It's just that I don't trust my Lee Perfect powder measure :x .

This thing will beautifully throw the exact powder charge at 0.1gr five times in a row and then... be off by 0.7gr on the next one.

So I prefer to check the weight systematically.
And if I detect a 0.1gr deviation, well, if I have spotted it, I am too perfectionist not to correct it! :mrgreen:

Anyway, overall, I would do a very good review for that Frankford scale. Mine does the job!
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Re: Electronic scales

Post by Lazarus » 29 Nov 2022, 11:55 am

Vince24 wrote:In my case the reason why I weight every powder charge is NOT that I think that 0.1gr will make a difference on the group.

It's just that I don't trust my Lee Perfect powder measure :x .

This thing will beautifully throw the exact powder charge at 0.1gr five times in a row and then... be off by 0.7gr on the next one.

So I prefer to check the weight systematically.
And if I detect a 0.1gr deviation, well, if I have spotted it, I am too perfectionist not to correct it! :mrgreen:

Anyway, overall, I would do a very good review for that Frankford scale. Mine does the job!


The only time I've noticed mine getting squirrelly is when it needs recharging.

I don't have a powder thrower so I hand weigh every charge.
I calibrate every time I start and push the tare button every time I put the pan back on the scale.
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Re: Electronic scales

Post by Oldbloke » 29 Nov 2022, 2:18 pm

Lazarus wrote:
Vince24 wrote:In my case the reason why I weight every powder charge is NOT that I think that 0.1gr will make a difference on the group.

It's just that I don't trust my Lee Perfect powder measure :x .

This thing will beautifully throw the exact powder charge at 0.1gr five times in a row and then... be off by 0.7gr on the next one.

So I prefer to check the weight systematically.
And if I detect a 0.1gr deviation, well, if I have spotted it, I am too perfectionist not to correct it! :mrgreen:

Anyway, overall, I would do a very good review for that Frankford scale. Mine does the job!


The only time I've noticed mine getting squirrelly is when it needs recharging.

I don't have a powder thrower so I hand weigh every charge.
I calibrate every time I start and push the tare button every time I put the pan back on the scale.


I simple check weight(s) would be a good thing.
I just use a small stainless steel nut and bolt. Each should always weigh the same every time. I keep them in a zip lock bag with a note stating their weight.
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Re: Electronic scales

Post by Lazarus » 29 Nov 2022, 3:35 pm

Oldbloke wrote:
Lazarus wrote:
Vince24 wrote:In my case the reason why I weight every powder charge is NOT that I think that 0.1gr will make a difference on the group.

It's just that I don't trust my Lee Perfect powder measure :x .

This thing will beautifully throw the exact powder charge at 0.1gr five times in a row and then... be off by 0.7gr on the next one.

So I prefer to check the weight systematically.
And if I detect a 0.1gr deviation, well, if I have spotted it, I am too perfectionist not to correct it! :mrgreen:

Anyway, overall, I would do a very good review for that Frankford scale. Mine does the job!


The only time I've noticed mine getting squirrelly is when it needs recharging.

I don't have a powder thrower so I hand weigh every charge.
I calibrate every time I start and push the tare button every time I put the pan back on the scale.


I simple check weight(s) would be a good thing.
I just use a small stainless steel nut and bolt. Each should always weigh the same every time. I keep them in a zip lock bag with a note stating their weight.


The scale came with a 50g lab calibration weight, I use that.
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Re: Electronic scales

Post by bladeracer » 29 Nov 2022, 3:36 pm

Oldbloke wrote:I simple check weight(s) would be a good thing.
I just use a small stainless steel nut and bolt. Each should always weigh the same every time. I keep them in a zip lock bag with a note stating their weight.


A five-cent piece is supposed to be a standard 43.7gn.

I'm using copier paper as I worked out a few months ago. Currently loading 38gn loads for the .303 so I'm using a sheet of A4 cut to 147mm length, then folded up into a little lump I can drop on the scale periodically. A fixed calibration weight is handy, but it only tells you whether the scale is accurate at that weight, not at any other weight. I can calculate how much paper I need for whatever weight I'm working at and confirm the scale is correctly giving that specific weight. I have check weights from 1g to 50g, which are 15.4gn, 77gn, 154gn, 309gn and 772gn. With a digital scale you can be weighing any weight and toss on a check weight and it will weigh it immediately. With a beam if I'm weighing 38gn charges and want to confirm it's still accurate I have to set the scales to 77gn, then weigh the check weight to confirm, then set it back to 38gn, during which I could conceivably make the same mistake setting the scales and be off still.
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Re: Electronic scales

Post by Lazarus » 29 Nov 2022, 3:41 pm

bladeracer wrote:
Oldbloke wrote:I simple check weight(s) would be a good thing.
I just use a small stainless steel nut and bolt. Each should always weigh the same every time. I keep them in a zip lock bag with a note stating their weight.


A five-cent piece is supposed to be a standard 43.7gn.

I'm using copier paper as I worked out a few months ago. Currently loading 38gn loads for the .303 so I'm using a sheet of A4 cut to 147mm length, then folded up into a little lump I can drop on the scale periodically. A fixed calibration weight is handy, but it only tells you whether the scale is accurate at that weight, not at any other weight. I can calculate how much paper I need for whatever weight I'm working at and confirm the scale is correctly giving that specific weight. I have check weights from 1g to 50g, which are 15.4gn, 77gn, 154gn, 309gn and 772gn. With a digital scale you can be weighing any weight and toss on a check weight and it will weigh it immediately. With a beam if I'm weighing 38gn charges and want to confirm it's still accurate I have to set the scales to 77gn, then weigh the check weight to confirm, then set it back to 38gn, during which I could conceivably make the same mistake setting the scales and be off still.


Trouble with paper though Blade, it's absorbent.

Granted, it's only going to absorb a fraction of a feckhair, but the chrome calibration weight that came with the scales will still weigh the same 100 years from now.
As with everything though, if you've found a method that works for you and you're getting the results that you want, that's all that matters, eh?
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Re: Electronic scales

Post by bladeracer » 29 Nov 2022, 4:04 pm

Lazarus wrote:Trouble with paper though Blade, it's absorbent.

Granted, it's only going to absorb a fraction of a feckhair, but the chrome calibration weight that came with the scales will still weigh the same 100 years from now.
As with everything though, if you've found a method that works for you and you're getting the results that you want, that's all that matters, eh?


It is, I just don't think the difference is going to be relevant :-)
RCBS I think did a set of grain check weights, but I think it's over $200 - you'd have to pretty dedicated to find those useful.
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Re: Electronic scales

Post by Larry » 29 Nov 2022, 4:16 pm

Its easy to use projectiles as check weights if you wish to work in grains.
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Re: Electronic scales

Post by Oldbloke » 29 Nov 2022, 4:42 pm

Larry wrote:Its easy to use projectiles as check weights if you wish to work in grains.


Yep, that's what I did initially. And it works.
But I figure the soft lead tip might get damaged and some lead removed. Plus I like to test through the range of the scale, hence several weights are used.

It is horses for courses though. In reality just one of say 50 or 100gr would probably suffice.
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