Oldbloke wrote:"my 8x57mm sporterised Turk Mauser."
Bumped into a bloke about a month ago. His FIL shot a couple with one of them.
The numbers say it should be fine.
150gr doing 2700fps.
bladeracer wrote:Oldbloke wrote:"my 8x57mm sporterised Turk Mauser."
Bumped into a bloke about a month ago. His FIL shot a couple with one of them.
The numbers say it should be fine.
150gr doing 2700fps.
Oh yeah, I have zero doubt that the 8x57mm is up to the task
Particularly as the rifle is unscoped so would be only for close-range.
I'm more interested in other opinions of the Outer Edge copper bullet, does it perform as well as others that are better known, like Barnes, Swift and Cutting Edge Bullets.
JohnV wrote:I doubt the bullet is copper as that would be too soft and foul more . It would be gilding metal a type of brass that the make jackets out of or something close to it . No matter what anyone says they will wear the throat quicker than softer constructed bullets but in a stalking rifle not firing many rounds per year it won't matter . They should have a high BC and shoot well .
This is sales BS :- " The Outer Edge range of target projectiles are transonically tuned (stable through the transonic zone) "
Even a perfectly balanced bullet if it is not spun enough will be unstable especially through the transonic zone .
No bullet construction method can negate the effects of an inadequate twist rate .
deye243 wrote:My local has quite a few of these I'm up in East Gippsland a few of the deer hunting crews use them what were you after
Lazarus wrote:https://www.ssaa.org.au/?ss_news=outer-edge-the-new-age-of-copper-projectiles
Oldbloke wrote:All it would need is a reliable 4x40 scope.
Personally I think a heavy bullet moving slow beats a light one moving fast. But I'm sure plenty will disagree.
bladeracer wrote:Lazarus wrote:https://www.ssaa.org.au/?ss_news=outer-edge-the-new-age-of-copper-projectiles
That's interesting as I didn't think pure metals could be tempered.
"OEP bullets are different in a number of ways. For starters they’re made from pure copper, a metal traditionally regarded as too soft and light for standalone bullet production except as an alloy. That’s no longer the case. The copper used to make OEP bullets is pre-tempered to ensure the finished product will consistently meet specific performance criteria. The temper of the metal is not changed by the manufacturing process."
JohnV wrote:I just looked at their ,243 81 grain bullet and it needs 1 in 8 twist ! My 81 grain .243 bullet only needs 1 in 10 to 800 meters . What is the twist rate in the 8 x 57 ? Have you checked the bore diameter ?
bladeracer wrote:JohnV wrote:I just looked at their ,243 81 grain bullet and it needs 1 in 8 twist ! My 81 grain .243 bullet only needs 1 in 10 to 800 meters . What is the twist rate in the 8 x 57 ? Have you checked the bore diameter ?
Yes, that is the issue with using lighter materials than lead, to get equal mass you need to go to extreme lengths, requiring custom twist rates. I'm shooting 162gn and 175gn conventional bullets in my 7mm-08, OE only offers 7mm bullets from 120gn to 132gn as any longer is into custom territory. Same reason they only offer .224" bullets up to 57gn when I'm shooting 80gn and 85gn conventional bullets.
Haven't measured the twist rate but as far as I know it should be the standard 9.5" twist of all the 8x57mm Mausers of that era - it's a 1903/38. It shoots the 180gn Nosler BT very well. I think it's like the .30-cals, it should shoot pretty much any bullet that I could ever find or make for it.
bladeracer wrote:Lazarus wrote:https://www.ssaa.org.au/?ss_news=outer-edge-the-new-age-of-copper-projectiles
That's interesting as I didn't think pure metals could be tempered.
"OEP bullets are different in a number of ways. For starters they’re made from pure copper, a metal traditionally regarded as too soft and light for standalone bullet production except as an alloy. That’s no longer the case. The copper used to make OEP bullets is pre-tempered to ensure the finished product will consistently meet specific performance criteria. The temper of the metal is not changed by the manufacturing process."
JohnV wrote:9.5 twist rate would be fine . Some older 8 x 57 Mausers had smaller bores and it's not clear about the Turkish models .
1903 /38 ( 03 /38 ) many were converted from 7.65 mm to 7.92 mm. I would check the twist rate just to be sure as the 7.65mm x 53mm had a 1 in 11 twist .
My point about the transonic zone is that Outer Edge are claiming that their bullets are " specially tuned " to go through the transonic zone and that is BS .
Quoted BC's are highly subjective . No single BC describes a full trajectory . In calculations there is a separate BC for numerous velocity points along a trajectory and the number changes . That is why some like Sierra quote 3 BC's taken at certain points along the trajectory. This results in a better solution . Some just look at the list of BC's and pick the biggest number because that sells bullets and some do an average of all the BC's in the list . So you can see that a slight quoted difference of say .002 G1 BC between two bullets could be totally wrong one way or the other and there is enough room in the various ways to argue all day about which way is right and which way produces the best solution .
Shooting the bullet will always be a good test and get the near and far velocities and then calculate the BC .
You can also calculate a BC from precise bullet specs and it's fairly accurate but the process is difficult but it can't allow for rifling damage , base damage , bullet pointing up in flight , cannula disturbance , meplat damage . etc. Whereas shooting it numerous times and averaging results takes more into account .
Lazarus wrote:I could be wrong but as I know it "tempering" is a thermal process to relieve some of the stresses introduced during forging and manufacturing.
When I harden a knife or tool, it has all manner of stress particularly from hardening, letting it sit at 200° for 2hrs, cool and repeat will he it go from brittle hard to tough hard.
I didn't think they'd bother with projectiles but perhaps it's a terminal performance thing
Perhaps someone with more than my rudimentary understanding could clarify for both of us.
bladeracer wrote:Lazarus wrote:I could be wrong but as I know it "tempering" is a thermal process to relieve some of the stresses introduced during forging and manufacturing.
When I harden a knife or tool, it has all manner of stress particularly from hardening, letting it sit at 200° for 2hrs, cool and repeat will he it go from brittle hard to tough hard.
I didn't think they'd bother with projectiles but perhaps it's a terminal performance thing
Perhaps someone with more than my rudimentary understanding could clarify for both of us.
Yep, but you are using alloys, not pure iron or copper. My (rudimentary) understanding is that to see any benefit from tempering it has to be an alloy, the tempering has an effect in better aligning the molecules of the differing metals. I don't think it does anything at all when all the molecules are all a single metal.
Wyliecoyote wrote:One glaring issue with any monolithic used at long range is their lack of reliable expansion on game like deer and pigs where they pencil through like a military FMJ. Up close at 250 yards or less we use them exclusively for thermal night hunting where they punch above their weight rarely requiring a follow up shot. In daylight you cannot go past the old Amax or current ELDM or X for reliable kills at extended ranges. Another thing we have found is using their BC numbers, ballistic apps and monolithics don't always marry up at those far out ranges.
Wyliecoyote wrote:There is conjecture amongst the yanks about what speed Barnes and other copper bullets start to pencil on through on deer sized game. Some say below 2400 fps, others below 2000 fps. ELDXs are said to be good for 1600 fps. There is no doubt the wound chanel and exit hole does get smaller the further out you get. You hit a solid bone that changes as it should. I absolutely swear by them (TSXs} for thermal night shooting at shorter ranges. At long range i steer clear.
Here in lies the problem with copper. In its pure form it does neither age or precipitation harden and is why most are made of pure copper. Contrary to claims made, anytime you form, bend, impact by striking or vibration or machine copper, it hardens. Tempering of pure copper does not exist exactly as you said as it is not alloyed and is not in a hard brittle state that requires it to be toughened. That is what tempering is, taking a heat treated brittle alloy like EN36 and heating to a certain temp for a certain time and slowly cooling to make it tougher. I make many chamber reamers and do exactly this to prevent them chipping or fracturing. To change coppers hardness it can only be done by annealing, or working. There is no other way. So a bullet maker will ask for copper at a certain state' like quarter hard or half hard in order to make it machine cleanly and not tear or feather if it is too soft. A bullet jacket maker will ask the same but will use annealing processes along the way. Upon completion its state of hardness has altered and hopefully it's still soft enough to deform on impact, and hard enough to not deform or slump during acceleration and spin up in the bore. Whether the likes of Barnes or others making monolithic bullets anneal at any time is unknown to me but i do know a number of custom bullet makers in the US certainly do like Randy Robinett of BIB bullets.
JohnV wrote:Very fine meplats on monolithic bullets can sometimes deflect off course in the wound channel due to no expansion and the ogive bending .
Larry wrote:I used them in the 243 with 2 sample size packets of different weights they shot like crap. The manufacture sent loading details with them and the load was super hot, The accuracy was just not there.