AR2206H vs AR2208 and 115fps

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AR2206H vs AR2208 and 115fps

Post by ash_hendo » 02 Feb 2023, 10:07 pm

I'm a bit of a reloading newbie, so this may be a stupid question, however.....

I've just created two loads which shoot very well (maybe 1/4 moa at 100m), one with AR2206H and one with AR2208 and the AR2208 is 115fps slower.

I was wondering if there is any advantage of the slower speed load?

Would it make much difference to brass life? Is the slower powder less "harsh" on things in general? Will the 115fps make much of a difference? Balistics calcs seem to indicate only an inch difference either way at 500m which doesn't seem too much to me.

Any thoughts to assist me choose one over the other will be greatly appreciated!

<edit> the Cartridge is 6.5 creedmoor.

Below is the load details with chrono results.

Loads.jpg
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Last edited by ash_hendo on 03 Feb 2023, 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: AR2206H vs AR2208 and 115fps

Post by Larry » 02 Feb 2023, 10:12 pm

Make it a little easier and tell us the cartridge. Telepathy is always a little hit and miss
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Re: AR2206H vs AR2208 and 115fps

Post by rc42 » 02 Feb 2023, 10:44 pm

So, 2208 is a little slower than 2206H but not by much, typically more powder is used as the powder burn rate slows as you can get both higher muzzle velocity and lower peak chamber pressure at the same time. This is great but if the powder is too slow you'll run out of case volume before getting a usable load and if it's too fast you'll have a big air gap with the powder moving around and inconsistent results.

In terms of brass life I wouldn't expect any difference between your loads, nor would the extra 115fps cause any measurable reduction in barrel life.
Personally, I'd try to match muzzle velocities and get the same zero point for both and choose between them based on group size, it's certainly good to have load options with different powders.
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Re: AR2206H vs AR2208 and 115fps

Post by bladeracer » 02 Feb 2023, 10:47 pm

ash_hendo wrote:I'm a bit of a reloading newbie, so this may be a stupid question, however.....

I've just created two loads which shoot very well (maybe 1/4 moa at 100m), one with AR2206H and one with AR2208 and the AR2208 is 115fps slower.

I was wondering if there is any advantage of the slower speed load?

Would it make much difference to brass life? Is the slower powder less "harsh" on things in general? Will the 115fps make much of a difference? Balistics calcs seem to indicate only an inch difference either way at 500m which doesn't seem too much to me.

Any thoughts to assist me choose one over the other will be greatly appreciated!

Below is the load details with chrono results.

Loads.jpg


I would go with whichever is more accurate.
Less heat and pressure is easier on the firearm and the brass, but that's a slight enough difference I doubt it would matter. If I don't need the velocity to knock down a silhouette or beat heavy winds for example then I prefer to load lower.
I also prefer AR2206H generally for its versatility but if you're only loading one cartridge it doesn't matter.
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Re: AR2206H vs AR2208 and 115fps

Post by deye243 » 03 Feb 2023, 12:31 am

Looking at the velocity it's either a 6.5 tcu or a very mild load 6.5 man bun
Are we talking a custom built target rifle and top tier scope or is this just a lucky group of 3 shots .
If a custom I apologise but generally slower burning powders give you lower pressure for the same speed put more 08 in the case see where it goes.
If it is a 308 or 22-250 based case you should be using 2209
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Re: AR2206H vs AR2208 and 115fps

Post by Oldbloke » 03 Feb 2023, 4:57 am

bladeracer wrote:
ash_hendo wrote:I'm a bit of a reloading newbie, so this may be a stupid question, however.....

I've just created two loads which shoot very well (maybe 1/4 moa at 100m), one with AR2206H and one with AR2208 and the AR2208 is 115fps slower.

I was wondering if there is any advantage of the slower speed load?

Would it make much difference to brass life? Is the slower powder less "harsh" on things in general? Will the 115fps make much of a difference? Balistics calcs seem to indicate only an inch difference either way at 500m which doesn't seem too much to me.

Any thoughts to assist me choose one over the other will be greatly appreciated!

Below is the load details with chrono results.

Loads.jpg


I would go with whichever is more accurate.
Less heat and pressure is easier on the firearm and the brass, but that's a slight enough difference I doubt it would matter. If I don't need the velocity to knock down a silhouette or beat heavy winds for example then I prefer to load lower.
I also prefer AR2206H generally for its versatility
but if you're only loading one cartridge it doesn't matter.



Yep, nothing in it. Go AR2206H unless your already using AR2208 for something else.
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Re: AR2206H vs AR2208 and 115fps

Post by in2anity » 03 Feb 2023, 8:05 am

Within TR aka fullbore aka palma, the rules dictate a 155gr 308 pill must be used (or an 80gr 223). Given these boundaries, TR shooters aim for MAXIMUM velocity; giving them the best chance to buck a fishy wind. ash_hendo, this brings into question your exact question; 06H vs 08 - both get used by national and international level TR competitors. As you have identified, 06H will technically yield a slightly higher velocity, thus should be the obvious choice. Nonetheless, in this context, 08 is still largely preferred over 06H. The reasons being that anecdotally it yields a slightly more uniform burn, being a slightly slower powder. Thus (anecdotally) it's ever so slightly more consistent on paper. It is also (as you mentioned) easier on the brass and action.

Me personally, I used AR2206H in my 30cals for both TR and SR(Service Rifle) for a long time. And I did really good things with 06H. But I still was left searching for accuracy; and after switching to 08 (in my contexts), my scores seemed to go up ever so slightly. Whether this was due to my skills improving vs the powder change, I'll probably never know for sure. What I do know is that AR2208 in my 308s and 303s seems to work really well, and I'm getting excellent case life out of my reloads (I even FLS!). So I'll be keep using AR2208 in my 30cals, and save the AR2206H for the smaller callibers, like my beloved No4-223 service rifle.
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: AR2206H vs AR2208 and 115fps

Post by ash_hendo » 03 Feb 2023, 10:31 am

Larry wrote:Make it a little easier and tell us the cartridge. Telepathy is always a little hit and miss


6.5 Creedmoor :-)
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Re: AR2206H vs AR2208 and 115fps

Post by ash_hendo » 03 Feb 2023, 12:27 pm

Oldbloke wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
ash_hendo wrote:Below is the load details with chrono results.

Loads.jpg


I would go with whichever is more accurate.
Less heat and pressure is easier on the firearm and the brass, but that's a slight enough difference I doubt it would matter. If I don't need the velocity to knock down a silhouette or beat heavy winds for example then I prefer to load lower.
I also prefer AR2206H generally for its versatility
but if you're only loading one cartridge it doesn't matter.



Yep, nothing in it. Go AR2206H unless your already using AR2208 for something else.
.


Thanks for your replies Bladeracer/Oldbloke, I am using AR2206H in my Ruger ranch rifle 223 as it's what works best for it (short barrel). so maybe it is just easier having one type powder. The only other rifles I have are 243 and 308 which I'm yet to develop loads for. I had assumed AR2208 would be more suitable for them. But If I can get a AR2206H load to work for them, then I guess my choice is then easy.
Last edited by ash_hendo on 03 Feb 2023, 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: AR2206H vs AR2208 and 115fps

Post by bladeracer » 03 Feb 2023, 12:33 pm

ash_hendo wrote:Thanks for your replies Bladeracer/Oldbloke, I am using AR2206H in my Ruger ranch rifle 223 as it's what works best for it (short barrel). so maybe it is just easier having one type powder. The only other rifles I have are 243 and 208 which I'm yet to develop loads for. I had assumed AR2208 would be more suitable for them. But If I can get a AR2206H load to work for them, then I guess my choice is then easy.


If by "208" you mean .204, I use AR2206H in the .204, .223, and .243. I don't own the Creedmoor but I also use it in the 6.5x55mm's and almost everything else I own.
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Re: AR2206H vs AR2208 and 115fps

Post by ash_hendo » 03 Feb 2023, 12:39 pm

deye243 wrote:Looking at the velocity it's either a 6.5 tcu or a very mild load 6.5 man bun
Are we talking a custom built target rifle and top tier scope or is this just a lucky group of 3 shots .
If a custom I apologise but generally slower burning powders give you lower pressure for the same speed put more 08 in the case see where it goes.
If it is a 308 or 22-250 based case you should be using 2209


Probably a low/medium tier factory rifle/scope (Sauer Panter/Swarovski Z5(i) 5-25×52) in the manbun calibre :-) It is my range gun, so I do want to have satisfying groups...

I worked the load up and graphed it and then did fine tuning in the part that looked flattest. It's not a lucky string of shots, I've shot 25 of each load off and they're very consistent. I didn't know if it was just my mind, but the AR2208 did seem "milder" and I wondered if that equated to less brass/Barrel wear. The consensus in this thread seems to be 115fps difference may not be really significant. The AR2206H is way better in my 223, much cleaner burning I think. I do have a 308, but not worked load for it and do not have any AR2209 yet. My 308 is a bit of a scrub/pig gun, short barrelled and I don't care too much about accuracy, just need to knock a pig down under 100m.... Maybe I should just use up the AR2208 and keep 2206H and 2209...
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Re: AR2206H vs AR2208 and 115fps

Post by ash_hendo » 03 Feb 2023, 12:40 pm

bladeracer wrote:
ash_hendo wrote:Thanks for your replies Bladeracer/Oldbloke, I am using AR2206H in my Ruger ranch rifle 223 as it's what works best for it (short barrel). so maybe it is just easier having one type powder. The only other rifles I have are 243 and 208 which I'm yet to develop loads for. I had assumed AR2208 would be more suitable for them. But If I can get a AR2206H load to work for them, then I guess my choice is then easy.


If by "208" you mean .204, I use AR2206H in the .204, .223, and .243. I don't own the Creedmoor but I also use it in the 6.5x55mm's and almost everything else I own.


damn, typo - 308.... If you use it in the 243 and 6.5x55 then maybe I in the 308, I can then just "standardise" on 2206h. looks like I need to work on that....
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Re: AR2206H vs AR2208 and 115fps

Post by ash_hendo » 03 Feb 2023, 12:45 pm

in2anity wrote:Within TR aka fullbore aka palma, the rules dictate a 155gr 308 pill must be used (or an 80gr 223). Given these boundaries, TR shooters aim for MAXIMUM velocity; giving them the best chance to buck a fishy wind. ash_hendo, this brings into question your exact question; 06H vs 08 - both get used by national and international level TR competitors. As you have identified, 06H will technically yield a slightly higher velocity, thus should be the obvious choice. Nonetheless, in this context, 08 is still largely preferred over 06H. The reasons being that anecdotally it yields a slightly more uniform burn, being a slightly slower powder. Thus (anecdotally) it's ever so slightly more consistent on paper. It is also (as you mentioned) easier on the brass and action.

Me personally, I used AR2206H in my 30cals for both TR and SR(Service Rifle) for a long time. And I did really good things with 06H. But I still was left searching for accuracy; and after switching to 08 (in my contexts), my scores seemed to go up ever so slightly. Whether this was due to my skills improving vs the powder change, I'll probably never know for sure. What I do know is that AR2208 in my 308s and 303s seems to work really well, and I'm getting excellent case life out of my reloads (I even FLS!). So I'll be keep using AR2208 in my 30cals, and save the AR2206H for the smaller callibers, like my beloved No4-223 service rifle.


Thanks for this info, really interesting. May I ask what case life you are getting?
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Re: AR2206H vs AR2208 and 115fps

Post by bladeracer » 03 Feb 2023, 12:57 pm

ash_hendo wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
ash_hendo wrote:Thanks for your replies Bladeracer/Oldbloke, I am using AR2206H in my Ruger ranch rifle 223 as it's what works best for it (short barrel). so maybe it is just easier having one type powder. The only other rifles I have are 243 and 208 which I'm yet to develop loads for. I had assumed AR2208 would be more suitable for them. But If I can get a AR2206H load to work for them, then I guess my choice is then easy.


If by "208" you mean .204, I use AR2206H in the .204, .223, and .243. I don't own the Creedmoor but I also use it in the 6.5x55mm's and almost everything else I own.


damn, typo - 308.... If you use it in the 243 and 6.5x55 then maybe I in the 308, I can then just "standardise" on 2206h. looks like I need to work on that....


I use it in .30-06, .303, 7.62x54R, .30-30 and 8x57mm as well - it's a great powder.
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Re: AR2206H vs AR2208 and 115fps

Post by JimTom » 03 Feb 2023, 1:18 pm

Mate can I ask where you got your load data for using 2206H and 2208 in the 6.6 Creemoor?
I load mine with 2209.
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Re: AR2206H vs AR2208 and 115fps

Post by bladeracer » 03 Feb 2023, 1:21 pm

JimTom wrote:Mate can I ask where you got your load data for using 2206H and 2208 in the 6.6 Creemoor?
I load mine with 2209.


ADI website has load data.
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Re: AR2206H vs AR2208 and 115fps

Post by Oldbloke » 03 Feb 2023, 1:25 pm

ash_hendo wrote:
Oldbloke wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
ash_hendo wrote:Below is the load details with chrono results.

Loads.jpg


I would go with whichever is more accurate.
Less heat and pressure is easier on the firearm and the brass, but that's a slight enough difference I doubt it would matter. If I don't need the velocity to knock down a silhouette or beat heavy winds for example then I prefer to load lower.
I also prefer AR2206H generally for its versatility
but if you're only loading one cartridge it doesn't matter.



Yep, nothing in it. Go AR2206H unless your already using AR2208 for something else.
.


Thanks for your replies Bladeracer/Oldbloke, I am using AR2206H in my Ruger ranch rifle 223 as it's what works best for it (short barrel). so maybe it is just easier having one type powder. The only other rifles I have are 243 and 208 which I'm yet to develop loads for. I had assumed AR2208 would be more suitable for them. But If I can get a AR2206H load to work for them, then I guess my choice is then easy.


100% just use AR2206H for all of them. Less chance of a mistake.
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Re: AR2206H vs AR2208 and 115fps

Post by in2anity » 03 Feb 2023, 2:08 pm

ash_hendo wrote:Thanks for this info, really interesting. May I ask what case life you are getting?

10-15 on average in the front lockers. But correct and frequent annealing is critical. Getting back to the 6.5mm, if you really want the optimal powder you should be using AR2209.
At what point does lack of maintenance become patina?
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Re: AR2206H vs AR2208 and 115fps

Post by ash_hendo » 03 Feb 2023, 4:55 pm

bladeracer wrote:
JimTom wrote:Mate can I ask where you got your load data for using 2206H and 2208 in the 6.6 Creemoor?
I load mine with 2209.


ADI website has load data.


I did look at the ADI website first but they only went up to 140gr. I took a very safe load based on the figures there and worked up looking for pressure signs. Although this works for me with my brass and rifle and bullet seating, there is no guarantee it will work in another.
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Re: AR2206H vs AR2208 and 115fps

Post by ash_hendo » 03 Feb 2023, 4:58 pm

Oldbloke wrote: 100% just use AR2206H for all of them. Less chance of a mistake.


That is a very good point, I almost mixed them up once already as they're only a slighly different colour and it's easy to pick up the wrong canister! I'm convinced now, I will use the AR2206H, thanks!!
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Re: AR2206H vs AR2208 and 115fps

Post by ash_hendo » 03 Feb 2023, 5:06 pm

in2anity wrote:
ash_hendo wrote:Thanks for this info, really interesting. May I ask what case life you are getting?

10-15 on average in the front lockers. But correct and frequent annealing is critical. Getting back to the 6.5mm, if you really want the optimal powder you should be using AR2209.


Thanks, sounds like if I ever get good enough to be in a competition, I would need to be optimal. I'm probably a bit off that for the moment, the rifle/load is probably capable of more than I can utilise without a lot more practice. I think old Bloke also had a good point about keeping powders apart. I think I'll use up the AR2208 and stick to AR2206H until what point I need the extra optimisation and then I'll try the AR2209 as you suggest. I guess I'll need to work out how to anneal as well, I read it keeps neck tension consistant as well as extending brass life.
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Re: AR2206H vs AR2208 and 115fps

Post by bladeracer » 03 Feb 2023, 5:18 pm

ash_hendo wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
JimTom wrote:Mate can I ask where you got your load data for using 2206H and 2208 in the 6.6 Creemoor?
I load mine with 2209.


ADI website has load data.


I did look at the ADI website first but they only went up to 140gr. I took a very safe load based on the figures there and worked up looking for pressure signs. Although this works for me with my brass and rifle and bullet seating, there is no guarantee it will work in another.


You didn't mention what bullet weights you're using :-)
I use AR2206H in all my 6.5mm chamberings with 160gn jacketed bullets and 170gn cast bullets.
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Re: AR2206H vs AR2208 and 115fps

Post by Oldbloke » 03 Feb 2023, 5:28 pm

Don't stress.
AR2208 & AR2206H are both very versatile powders.
IMO 2206H has the edge.

Powder will keep for many years.

Perhaps put the AR2208 into storage and come back to it in a few years if required.

If your not into competition both will do well for heaps of cartridges and AR2206H is recommended for "light" loads. So has that advantage.

It's just splitting hairs.

PS. I'm using AR2208 for both 30.06 and 223.
AR2206H will do the same. Fantastic stuff.
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Re: AR2206H vs AR2208 and 115fps

Post by ash_hendo » 03 Feb 2023, 7:57 pm

Oldbloke wrote:Don't stress.
AR2208 & AR2206H are both very versatile powders.
IMO 2206H has the edge.

Powder will keep for many years.

Perhaps put the AR2208 into storage and come back to it in a few years if required.

If your not into competition both will do well for heaps of cartridges and AR2206H is recommended for "light" loads. So has that advantage.

It's just splitting hairs.

PS. I'm using AR2208 for both 30.06 and 223.
AR2206H will do the same. Fantastic stuff.


Good point about the lighter loads, I do intend to have some lighter ones, so yes, more versatile for me.
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Re: AR2206H vs AR2208 and 115fps

Post by JimTom » 04 Feb 2023, 6:38 am

bladeracer wrote:
JimTom wrote:Mate can I ask where you got your load data for using 2206H and 2208 in the 6.6 Creemoor?
I load mine with 2209.


ADI website has load data.


Not for a 147 gn bullet it doesn’t mate.
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Re: AR2206H vs AR2208 and 115fps

Post by bladeracer » 04 Feb 2023, 12:46 pm

JimTom wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
JimTom wrote:Mate can I ask where you got your load data for using 2206H and 2208 in the 6.6 Creemoor?
I load mine with 2209.


ADI website has load data.


Not for a 147 gn bullet it doesn’t mate.


You didn't mention bullet weights...
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Re: AR2206H vs AR2208 and 115fps

Post by ash_hendo » 04 Feb 2023, 12:56 pm

JimTom wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
JimTom wrote:Mate can I ask where you got your load data for using 2206H and 2208 in the 6.6 Creemoor?
I load mine with 2209.


ADI website has load data.


Not for a 147 gn bullet it doesn’t mate.


Not sure why they don't, I belive it's quite a popular weight.

Anyway, as I said, I just worked up from a bit below the minumum for the 140 in .5 increments watching for pressure signs.
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Re: AR2206H vs AR2208 and 115fps

Post by Oldbloke » 04 Feb 2023, 1:23 pm

Hodgden list a 142gr
Rebranded ADI Powders.jpg
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Resized_Screenshot_20230204-141903_Samsung_Internet.jpeg
Resized_Screenshot_20230204-141903_Samsung_Internet.jpeg (112.63 KiB) Viewed 1035 times
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Re: AR2206H vs AR2208 and 115fps

Post by bladeracer » 04 Feb 2023, 1:46 pm

ash_hendo wrote:Not sure why they don't, I believe it's quite a popular weight.

Anyway, as I said, I just worked up from a bit below the minimum for the 140 in .5 increments watching for pressure signs.


They generally only list the more efficient powders, they don't list every powder for every bullet weight. I use the 147gn ELDM in 6.5x55mm on 35.5gn of AR2206H making a little over 2300fps in my M38. I chronoed Norma 139gn FMJ factory ammo in the same session I did that first 147gn load development and they make around 2470fps in the same rifle.
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Re: AR2206H vs AR2208 and 115fps

Post by bladeracer » 04 Feb 2023, 1:49 pm

Oldbloke wrote:Hodgden list a 142gr
The attachment Rebranded ADI Powders.jpg is no longer available


The attachment Resized_Screenshot_20230204-141903_Samsung_Internet.jpeg is no longer available


Same data as ADI has.
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