AR2206H vs AR2208 and 115fps

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Re: AR2206H vs AR2208 and 115fps

Post by Oldbloke » 04 Feb 2023, 4:38 pm

OK. Miss read. Thought ADI listed 140gr.
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Re: AR2206H vs AR2208 and 115fps

Post by SCJ429 » 05 Feb 2023, 8:54 am

I don't shoot a 6.5 Creedmoor in competition but I do load for a CM and shoot a 6.5 260 Win in competition. The decision for me was when shooting 140 grain plus pills, should I use 2209 or Shortcut. I ended up getting the best results with 2209. I didn't waste my time with 2206, far too low case fill but as you have shown it will send them down range.
You decision is do you burn a lot of powder and get data about a powder you don't end up using once you get serious.
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Re: AR2206H vs AR2208 and 115fps

Post by ash_hendo » 05 Feb 2023, 11:38 am

bladeracer wrote:
ash_hendo wrote:Not sure why they don't, I believe it's quite a popular weight.

Anyway, as I said, I just worked up from a bit below the minimum for the 140 in .5 increments watching for pressure signs.


They generally only list the more efficient powders, they don't list every powder for every bullet weight. I use the 147gn ELDM in 6.5x55mm on 35.5gn of AR2206H making a little over 2300fps in my M38. I chronoed Norma 139gn FMJ factory ammo in the same session I did that first 147gn load development and they make around 2470fps in the same rifle.


Thanks for the info, makes sense they'd list the 'most popular/efficient" powers for each weight. But I can see the advantage in having one powder. Interesting the 35.5gn in the swede gives 2300fps and I'm using 35.1 to get 2450fps in the 6.5cm for the same 147gn ELDM. I guess the smaller case means more pressure. Anyway, nice to know it's in the ballpark. I'm going to load up another 25 and go the range and see if they replicate the previous experience.
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Re: AR2206H vs AR2208 and 115fps

Post by Wyliecoyote » 05 Feb 2023, 8:13 pm

I don't use the 147 ELDs in my Creedmoor barrel, but do use Reloder 26 and 140 ELDMs. Having used a multitude of powders in all sorts of chamberings, i refrain from using 2209 these days. Of all the powders 2209 has the highest flame temp and most abrasive nature on barrels i have ever seen. For example 7 Saum or back in the days when 6.5/284 was king of the heap completely washed out barrels at 800 rounds was common place in FClass even with moderate loads. The erosion was not just in the throat, it extended 6 to 8 inches down the barrel that made a cut and shut not a consideration. The barrels were discarded making that discipline a new barrel a year must.
While i wouldn't to use 2206H or 2208, i would advocate going to 2213 SC for heavy for caliber bullets in the 6.5 with medium sized cases. AR2217 would be best of all regarding barrel life with its very low flame temp, but you simply cannot get enough of it to make speed in the 308 sized cases which is very unfortunate. 30/06 and 280 Ackley's just live forever on that stuff.
The guy below does a lot of load testing with comparisons of Quickload and real world data where this is a good one regarding the 6.5 Creedmoor. Again not my choice of bullet, but makes it pretty clear that Reloder 26 was made for the Creedmoor and 260 Rem with its low flame temp and ability to get magnum performance out of medium sized cases.

https://youtu.be/xyL8AopVWEs
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Re: AR2206H vs AR2208 and 115fps

Post by ash_hendo » 05 Feb 2023, 9:22 pm

Wyliecoyote wrote:I don't use the 147 ELDs in my Creedmoor barrel, but do use Reloder 26 and 140 ELDMs. Having used a multitude of powders in all sorts of chamberings, i refrain from using 2209 these days. Of all the powders 2209 has the highest flame temp and most abrasive nature on barrels i have ever seen. For example 7 Saum or back in the days when 6.5/284 was king of the heap completely washed out barrels at 800 rounds was common place in FClass even with moderate loads. The erosion was not just in the throat, it extended 6 to 8 inches down the barrel that made a cut and shut not a consideration. The barrels were discarded making that discipline a new barrel a year must.
While i wouldn't to use 2206H or 2208, i would advocate going to 2213 SC for heavy for caliber bullets in the 6.5 with medium sized cases. AR2217 would be best of all regarding barrel life with its very low flame temp, but you simply cannot get enough of it to make speed in the 308 sized cases which is very unfortunate. 30/06 and 280 Ackley's just live forever on that stuff.
The guy below does a lot of load testing with comparisons of Quickload and real world data where this is a good one regarding the 6.5 Creedmoor. Again not my choice of bullet, but makes it pretty clear that Reloder 26 was made for the Creedmoor and 260 Rem with its low flame temp and ability to get magnum performance out of medium sized cases.

https://youtu.be/xyL8AopVWEs


Interesting ADI have load data for the 147gr on their website now, only for AR2209 and AR2213SC

6.5creed-147gr.jpg
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Re: AR2206H vs AR2208 and 115fps

Post by straightshooter » 06 Feb 2023, 7:23 am

Wyliecoyote wrote:I don't use the 147 ELDs in my Creedmoor barrel, but do use Reloder 26 and 140 ELDMs. Having used a multitude of powders in all sorts of chamberings, i refrain from using 2209 these days. Of all the powders 2209 has the highest flame temp and most abrasive nature on barrels i have ever seen. For example 7 Saum or back in the days when 6.5/284 was king of the heap completely washed out barrels at 800 rounds was common place in FClass even with moderate loads. The erosion was not just in the throat, it extended 6 to 8 inches down the barrel that made a cut and shut not a consideration. The barrels were discarded making that discipline a new barrel a year must.
While i wouldn't to use 2206H or 2208, i would advocate going to 2213 SC for heavy for caliber bullets in the 6.5 with medium sized cases. AR2217 would be best of all regarding barrel life with its very low flame temp, but you simply cannot get enough of it to make speed in the 308 sized cases which is very unfortunate. 30/06 and 280 Ackley's just live forever on that stuff.
The guy below does a lot of load testing with comparisons of Quickload and real world data where this is a good one regarding the 6.5 Creedmoor. Again not my choice of bullet, but makes it pretty clear that Reloder 26 was made for the Creedmoor and 260 Rem with its low flame temp and ability to get magnum performance out of medium sized cases.

https://youtu.be/xyL8AopVWEs

Some of your comments are quite curious.
Re 26 is a double base propellant, that is it contains nitroglycerine.
Double base powders are not known for being less erosive than single base powders at similar chamber pressures, in fact widespread experience shows the opposite to be the case.
The real strength of double base powders is a greater potential energy content per unit volume of propellant.
What you refer to as flame temperature is largely a function of peak chamber pressure. At 60 000 PSI chamber gas temperature is approaching 3000 degrees C.
As for the belief that a so called standard cartridge can be made to perform equivalent to a magnum cartridge, yes that is feasible but only at the cost of increased chamber pressure. For that not to be the case then the various physical gas laws and the laws of thermodynamics would have to be wrong.
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Re: AR2206H vs AR2208 and 115fps

Post by bladeracer » 06 Feb 2023, 8:29 am

ash_hendo wrote:Interesting ADI have load data for the 147gr on their website now, only for AR2209 and AR2213SC

6.5creed-147gr.jpg


It would appear somebody at ADI is following this thread :-)
They just need some data for the 160gn RN now.
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Re: AR2206H vs AR2208 and 115fps

Post by Oldbloke » 06 Feb 2023, 11:05 am

bladeracer wrote:
ash_hendo wrote:Interesting ADI have load data for the 147gr on their website now, only for AR2209 and AR2213SC

6.5creed-147gr.jpg


It would appear somebody at ADI is following this thread :-)
They just need some data for the 160gn RN now.


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Re: AR2206H vs AR2208 and 115fps

Post by Wyliecoyote » 06 Feb 2023, 12:42 pm

This is the Quickload list of powder flame temps in Fahrenheit. Not a complete list but gives you and idea.
Have a close look at where H4895 and Varget sit on the table.
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Re: AR2206H vs AR2208 and 115fps

Post by bladeracer » 06 Feb 2023, 3:59 pm

Wyliecoyote wrote:This is the Quickload list of powder flame temps in Fahrenheit. Not a complete list but gives you and idea.
Have a close look at where H4895 and Varget sit on the table.


I'm not sure what those temperatures are relevant to, surely they would relate directly to pressures? If I load 20gn of H4895 behind 55gn bullets it's clearly a lot cooler shooting than 25gn loads.
But it's certainly interesting.
The Accurate 5744 is a massive leap up over the next powder on that list, its huge jump of 613F almost covers the entire 640F range of the 67 powders on the list below it. I looked it up and it looks quite useful. In .223Rem 18.7gn pushes 55gn bullets to almost 3000fps. In the .204 25gn pushes the 24gn to almost 4400fps. That's 5-7gn less than I'm using of AR2206H. Similarly in 7mm-08. It looks like something that might be worth trying.
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Re: AR2206H vs AR2208 and 115fps

Post by SCJ429 » 06 Feb 2023, 4:38 pm

Wyliecoyote wrote:I don't use the 147 ELDs in my Creedmoor barrel, but do use Reloder 26 and 140 ELDMs. Having used a multitude of powders in all sorts of chamberings, i refrain from using 2209 these days. Of all the powders 2209 has the highest flame temp and most abrasive nature on barrels i have ever seen. For example 7 Saum or back in the days when 6.5/284 was king of the heap completely washed out barrels at 800 rounds was common place in FClass even with moderate loads. The erosion was not just in the throat, it extended 6 to 8 inches down the barrel that made a cut and shut not a consideration. The barrels were discarded making that discipline a new barrel a year must.
While i wouldn't to use 2206H or 2208, i would advocate going to 2213 SC for heavy for caliber bullets in the 6.5 with medium sized cases. AR2217 would be best of all regarding barrel life with its very low flame temp, but you simply cannot get enough of it to make speed in the 308 sized cases which is very unfortunate. 30/06 and 280 Ackley's just live forever on that stuff.
The guy below does a lot of load testing with comparisons of Quickload and real world data where this is a good one regarding the 6.5 Creedmoor. Again not my choice of bullet, but makes it pretty clear that Reloder 26 was made for the Creedmoor and 260 Rem with its low flame temp and ability to get magnum performance out of medium sized cases.

https://youtu.be/xyL8AopVWEs

I don't understand your thinking here, are you saying that you will get more barrel life using RE26 over 2209 and sending the projectile at the same velocity? That would be misleading. The barrel life from a 260 Rem AI using 2209 was about the same as a 6mm BRA using 2208 I have found. The two calibres you mention use much bigger cases than the Creedmoor and are hard on barrels because they are used to send projectiles at higher speeds. No one chambers in the SAUM and then uses a moderate load. They are looking for speed, otherwise you would use a smaller case.
There would be plenty of guys using 2209 in their Creedmoor and getting good results from it. Not heard of anyone shooting 140s and using 2217.
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Re: AR2206H vs AR2208 and 115fps

Post by ash_hendo » 06 Feb 2023, 8:09 pm

bladeracer wrote:
Wyliecoyote wrote:This is the Quickload list of powder flame temps in Fahrenheit. Not a complete list but gives you and idea.
Have a close look at where H4895 and Varget sit on the table.


I'm not sure what those temperatures are relevant to, surely they would relate directly to pressures? If I load 20gn of H4895 behind 55gn bullets it's clearly a lot cooler shooting than 25gn loads.
But it's certainly interesting.
The Accurate 5744 is a massive leap up over the next powder on that list, its huge jump of 613F almost covers the entire 640F range of the 67 powders on the list below it. I looked it up and it looks quite useful. In .223Rem 18.7gn pushes 55gn bullets to almost 3000fps. In the .204 25gn pushes the 24gn to almost 4400fps. That's 5-7gn less than I'm using of AR2206H. Similarly in 7mm-08. It looks like something that might be worth trying.


for those who want a quick comparison between ADI and that other chart....

Adi-equiv-temp.jpg
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Re: AR2206H vs AR2208 and 115fps

Post by straightshooter » 07 Feb 2023, 6:30 am

Wyliecoyote wrote:This is the Quickload list of powder flame temps in Fahrenheit. Not a complete list but gives you and idea.
Have a close look at where H4895 and Varget sit on the table.


This table appears to be a listing of "Specific Heat" for the various powders which will correlate with energy content although no units are provided.
The units should be in Calories or Joules depending on whether the calculations the figure is required for are done in English units or SI (metric units).
The "Specific Heat" is established by burning a quantity of sample powder in a closed bomb immersed in a water bath and is thus a measure of the energy the powder delivered in heating the water.
As stated in a previous comment the gas temperature in the chamber when a cartridge is fired is largely a function of chamber pressure and this table does not appear to be relevant.

I must admit that I know nothing about Quickload and could have things completely wrong. Also I don't ever recall coming across the term "flame temperature" in relation to smokeless powder.
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Re: AR2206H vs AR2208 and 115fps

Post by Larry » 07 Feb 2023, 7:36 am

From comments on the range those that use the 7 saum report that 2209 gives better barrel life than 2213sc but not quite the velocity. Often used as a download or milder load when the pressure of comp is slightly lower.
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Re: AR2206H vs AR2208 and 115fps

Post by bladeracer » 07 Feb 2023, 9:12 am

ash_hendo wrote:for those who want a quick comparison between ADI and that other chart....

Adi-equiv-temp.jpg


These are burn "rates", not temps. This is how quickly the powder generates pressure. This is important when related to bore volume or barrel length, and bullet mass. A 15gn bullet in an 18" .172" bore prefers a faster powder than a 250gn bullet in a 26" .338" bore.
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