Black powder alternative

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Black powder alternative

Post by Wallaby stew » 08 Jun 2023, 1:49 pm

I've got 3 Winchester lever action rifles in 44/40, one of them is a model 94 that I paid $160 for so no prizes for guessing that I've had it for a while. The other two are model 1873 and 1866 reproductions with 24" octagonal barrels, I've come to the realisation that finding a cast lead load that all three shoot reasonably is a bit like trying to get all your lotto numbers to line up on Saturday night.
I've trialed AP70 and trail boss with limited success as they seem too fast burning for anything but paper punching loads. I've read that Dupont no.2 was made to replace black powder in the late 1800s and it's burning rate is very similar to AR2205 and a 17 grain load was recommended for early black powder rifles and pistols.
I'm pretty happy with this discovery because when everyone was buying toilet paper I was buying AR2205 for a few of my rifles that like it so I've got plenty. I've done some testing on my range out back and so far I'm having a win this powder in this chambering. I know there is no published data for this powder in toggle link rifles but this load seems quite mild and from what I've read the pressures and velocity for this load are similar to black powder loads.
I was wondering if anyone else has any experience with this.
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Re: Black powder alternative

Post by CRF » 08 Jun 2023, 4:50 pm

Why don't you just use black powder? Cleaning up isn't as big a deal as people make it out to be and being from Queensland you should be able to access Wano powder pretty easily I would have thought.
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Re: Black powder alternative

Post by madang55 » 08 Jun 2023, 5:00 pm

If I had known what the future was for powder supplies, I would have found an alternative to toilet paper. Give certain body parts to get my hands on some 2205.
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Re: Black powder alternative

Post by madang55 » 08 Jun 2023, 5:34 pm

H110?
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W296?
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Re: Black powder alternative

Post by Wallaby stew » 08 Jun 2023, 8:19 pm

CRF wrote:Why don't you just use black powder? Cleaning up isn't as big a deal as people make it out to be and being from Queensland you should be able to access Wano powder pretty easily I would have thought.

They've got it on the shelf in town, I've never used it I think the reason is just that, what I've heard about the clean up, I've been meaning to buy a jug to try it out but I've got a lot of smokeless to use. So far I have ten rifles that I load for and only use two powders.
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Re: Black powder alternative

Post by Obie73 » 09 Jun 2023, 10:38 am

Hi Wallaby stew, I've got a 24" Winchester 73 44-40 that I bought second hand the other day. Haven't had a shot of it yet but am really looking forward to it. I also have a Uberti 73 .357, which I've fired about 100 shots with so far and am really enjoying just shooting paper targets with it. Factory 357 and 38 spl at the moment but will be starting reloading soon. The 1873 is my favourite design for a lever action. Here is the knowledge I've gleaned so far from speaking with others. You may be interested but then again it sounds like you have enough 2205 to last a while. There's a very good shot and knowledgable guy at my range that said he was using 2205 and getting excellent results with his Uberti 1873 357 but then had to change to 2207. He says the gun is shooting exactly the same with 2207, same load and projectile. I've been thinking about blackpowder but would prefer to stay with smokeless as I like things to be reasonably low maintenance if possible. Still, I don't rule out getting into blackpowder at some point. I will be using 2207 when I start reloading, but if I hear of some 2205 for sale somewhere not too far away I'd be interested. Anyway, apparently shooters in the US sometimes load 44-40 with the equivalent of 2207.
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Re: Black powder alternative

Post by Larry » 09 Jun 2023, 12:04 pm

I have gone with the black powder in the 44-40 it really does give the best results. Better than any factory rounds I have been able to buy for it. Makes quite a bit more velocity and less recoil not as much smoke as I was expecting but certainly a very black mess to clean up and you must clean it. No putting it away I will clean it next time.
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Re: Black powder alternative

Post by Obie73 » 09 Jun 2023, 12:12 pm

Good to know, Larry. Do you know if it's possible to use blackpowder during normal SSAA lever action competitions and normal 'range open' practice shooting for general members, or can you shoot it in blackpowder events only? Also, how long on average would it take to completely clean the rifle after say about 100 rounds fired? Thanks.
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Re: Black powder alternative

Post by Wallaby stew » 09 Jun 2023, 12:32 pm

Obie73 wrote:Hi Wallaby stew, I've got a 24" Winchester 73 44-40 that I bought second hand the other day. Haven't had a shot of it yet but am really looking forward to it. I also have a Uberti 73 .357, which I've fired about 100 shots with so far and am really enjoying just shooting paper targets with it. Factory 357 and 38 spl at the moment but will be starting reloading soon. The 1873 is my favourite design for a lever action. Here is the knowledge I've gleaned so far from speaking with others. You may be interested but then again it sounds like you have enough 2205 to last a while. There's a very good shot and knowledgable guy at my range that said he was using 2205 and getting excellent results with his Uberti 1873 357 but then had to change to 2207. He says the gun is shooting exactly the same with 2207, same load and projectile. I've been thinking about blackpowder but would prefer to stay with smokeless as I like things to be reasonably low maintenance if possible. Still, I don't rule out getting into blackpowder at some point. I will be using 2207 when I start reloading, but if I hear of some 2205 for sale somewhere not too far away I'd be interested. Anyway, apparently shooters in the US sometimes load 44-40 with the equivalent of 2207.

I've always had a fondness for Winchester lever action rifles, I even worked for the company many years ago, getting these old (new) black powder guns to shoot well is a labour of love and the 73 is a great rifle to work with. I was running some loads through it yesterday then I picked up the 94 also in 44/40 and put a couple of rounds through it and oh dear, that's a bit different, I'd forgot how clunky the 94 is.
I've got a 92 and a 53 both in 25/20 and they both like the 2205 so I'm happy to find a load for the 44s in the same powder.
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Re: Black powder alternative

Post by Obie73 » 09 Jun 2023, 4:26 pm

Sounds great! Yes, I used to have a 94 in 30-30 but was never completely happy with it. I wasn't really all that interested in the longer 30-30 cartridge, for a lever action. Always just wanted to shoot pistol calibre style lever actions. But as always, to each their own. Would you be able to pass on some of your load information for the 44-40 that you use, eg. powder grains, bullet type/weight, and primer? I'm new to all this. I'd say I probably won't be able to reload for the 44-40 myself for quite a while, until LR primers become available again, but in the meantime I can get started with 357 for which there are still some suitable primers around if you look long and hard.
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Re: Black powder alternative

Post by Obie73 » 09 Jun 2023, 4:32 pm

Just out of curiosity, what primers would be used with 44-40 blackpowder? And does anyone have any experience using blackpowder for 357 lever rifles?
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Re: Black powder alternative

Post by Noisydad » 09 Jun 2023, 6:30 pm

The only powder I burn these days is the holy black in shootin irons from .32 to .600 with bullet weights from a piddling 115 gns to 580 gns
There’s so much bullshite and so many fairy tales about BP clean up that it’s clear those talking about it have no clue!
Using a proper bp bullet lube is important in fouling management but all you need for cleanup is luke warm water, dish washing liquid and some cotton patches.
Surely that can’t be that hard!
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Re: Black powder alternative

Post by Oldbloke » 09 Jun 2023, 7:24 pm

Noisydad wrote:The only powder I burn these days is the holy black in shootin irons from .32 to .600 with bullet weights from a piddling 115 gns to 580 gns
There’s so much bullshite and so many fairy tales about BP clean up that it’s clear those talking about it have no clue!
Using a proper bp bullet lube is important in fouling management but all you need for cleanup is luke warm water, dish washing liquid and some cotton patches.
Surely that can’t be that hard!


That's been my experience too.
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Re: Black powder alternative

Post by Wallaby stew » 09 Jun 2023, 8:41 pm

Obie73 wrote:Sounds great! Yes, I used to have a 94 in 30-30 but was never completely happy with it. I wasn't really all that interested in the longer 30-30 cartridge, for a lever action. Always just wanted to shoot pistol calibre style lever actions. But as always, to each their own. Would you be able to pass on some of your load information for the 44-40 that you use, eg. powder grains, bullet type/weight, and primer? I'm new to all this. I'd say I probably won't be able to reload for the 44-40 myself for quite a while, until LR primers become available again, but in the meantime I can get started with 357 for which there are still some suitable primers around if you look long and hard.
I bought the 94 44/40 new on 1979 and soon after discovered it was horribly inaccurate due to the factory ammo only being made for revolvers so I started my reloading journey back then. Some years later that rifle plus many others were stolen from my home via two padlocks, that was 1988. I had the serial numbers and gave them to the police who came apon it during a raid in Townsville in 2002 and gave it back to me so I've got a soft spot for my old 94, anyway back to loading for it, as I said my objective was to find a load to suit all my 44s and to find one that has enough power to use on pigs and deer so for a hunting load that seems to be adequate without too much stress on the toggle links I'm using 17 grns of 2205 which should be around 1150fps and prints around "2 at 50mts, all my cast in this calibre are.427. I've tried .429 with no improvement even though all the rifles slugged at .428
6.5 of trailboss or 6 grns of AP70 are good enough for plinking but I find better accuracy with the slower powder in fact I don't even like the way the fast powders sound when you shoot them.
I used to load the 94 with 23 grns of 2205 but there is no way I would use those loads in the 73 or the 66, far too hot. A good place to start is to slug the barrel and buy a sizing die to suit if you're going to cast, usually the same diameter as the bore of a thou or so bigger. Lee stuff is pretty good.
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Re: Black powder alternative

Post by Larry » 09 Jun 2023, 10:09 pm

I havent shot any SSAA events but there have been no restrictions on any range I have been to. Like I said though the amount of smoke is negligible compared to muzzle loaders. I wouldnt say anything unless someone asks or it is signed. But I would not shoot it on a fire hazard day.
As an alternative and more to the point of the OG post Pyrodex is the or was the first Black Powder alternative that I know of. I also tried this but again not as good as the real thing. For this cartridge anyway.
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Re: Black powder alternative

Post by Obie73 » 09 Jun 2023, 11:10 pm

Thank you for that great reloading info. That's amazing you actually got the rifle back all those years later when the Police found it. It's certainly had an interesting life so far. And thank you for the blackpowder information Larry, Oldbloke and noisydad. It's definitely got me thinking about BP. Who knows .... maybe I might try it.

I'm a bit concerned about my new acquisition. Today my 44-40 snap caps arrived and I loaded them into the Miroku Winchester 73. Woe is me, the snap caps aren't cycling well. Every few rounds a snap cap doesn't extract when I fling open the lever, and just sits angled up in the brass carrier, still hung up on the extractor hook. I will take it to the range this weekend and see if it cycles and extracts real rounds properly. My Uberti 357 cycles and extracts snap caps perfectly so I'm a bit concerned the Winchester might have a problem. I bought it in used condition from a gun shop recently. It looks in pretty good shape. I think it might have been made around 2001.

Does this sound like a serious problem?
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Re: Black powder alternative

Post by Obie73 » 10 Jun 2023, 9:27 am

My experience with lever actions so far is that when you get a new one (used or new) it usually has something on it that needs fixing or adjusting. There always seems to be something not quite right that has to rectified. But I still love 'em.
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Re: Black powder alternative

Post by Larry » 10 Jun 2023, 9:57 am

I dont know from experience but due to the massive numbers produced and reproduced any part should be easily available. Chiappa claim identical parts.
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Re: Black powder alternative

Post by Obie73 » 10 Jun 2023, 10:41 am

I will start a new topic on this, if it keeps having problems. Don't want to hog this thread which is on blackpowder alternatives specifically. So far on close examination the problem is the extractor hook just isn't letting go. It's either a headspace problem (bolt head goes too far back before the extractor can release), extractor hook problem (not disengaging at the right moment for some reason), or the carrier starting to lift too early. Basically, the hook just won't let go of the cartridge.
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Re: Black powder alternative

Post by Obie73 » 10 Jun 2023, 1:12 pm

I think I've found the answer to my problem. See this thread if anyone is interested: https://forums.sassnet.com/index.php?/t ... w-73-help/

Sorry for briefly diverting this thread!
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Re: Black powder alternative

Post by Wallaby stew » 10 Jun 2023, 1:41 pm

Obie73 wrote:I think I've found the answer to my problem. See this thread if anyone is interested: https://forums.sassnet.com/index.php?/t ... w-73-help/

Sorry for briefly diverting this thread!

That explanation was the first thing that came to mind. The ones I have for .22 are pretty soft.
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Re: Black powder alternative

Post by bladeracer » 10 Jun 2023, 3:29 pm

Obie73 wrote:I think I've found the answer to my problem. See this thread if anyone is interested: https://forums.sassnet.com/index.php?/t ... w-73-help/

Sorry for briefly diverting this thread!


I really would try it with actual ammo before "fixing" anything, or at least with dummy rounds made to the spec you intend to run. What matters is that it reliably feeds ammo, not snap caps.
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Re: Black powder alternative

Post by Obie73 » 22 Jun 2023, 5:42 pm

Finally got a shot at the range with my new 44-40. Worked fine. Very nice to shoot. Snap caps don't cycle but the real ones do. Yay, it's a keeper. Very mild recoil, that felt a bit like shooting a 38 spl out of a 357 rifle. BTW, a fellow there let me have a shot of his BP Pedersoli falling block action 45-70. Uber cool and more of a slow push than a hard shove on the shoulder. The Winchester factory ammo I got for the 44-40 wasn't all that accurate though. I know it wasn't me. I can normally shoot pretty well at 25m and this was spitting them over the place a bit, coming up with average 2 inch groups or something similar with buckhorn sights. Then again the sun was shining on the sights as it was early morning. But on the whole I'm sensing it was the loads. So might need to make tailor mades for this one.
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Re: Black powder alternative

Post by Larry » 23 Jun 2023, 7:35 am

Could you please post a pic of the ammo you used. Was it labeled as cowboy loads? any indication of velocity on the box?
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Re: Black powder alternative

Post by Obie73 » 24 Jun 2023, 10:24 am

Hi Larry. They were Winchester Super X 44-40 WIN 200 grain power point. It says "Deer" on the front of the box. They are semi-jacketed with flat, solid lead tip. A ballistic table on the back of the box says muzzle vel is 1130 and at 100 yds it's 975. I think from what I've read the 44-40 rifles ideally should have the barrel slugged to find the best bullet diameter for that particular rifle. These rounds aren't labeled as cowboy loads. But they felt very light in the recoil.
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Re: Black powder alternative

Post by Larry » 25 Jun 2023, 6:35 am

1130 is faster than the cowboy loads which I have found do about 960 in my rifle. Using BP I have it at about 1350 using the same type of bullet as the Winchester a Semi Jacketed. Not sure on the pressures I am getting using semi jacketed and larger diameter bullets and no lube. But it is all working fine and until the gun blows up I will continue.
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