forster micrometer seating die issues

[Tilb004]

Hi Guys

As you probably know have got new 6br .
Doing some load development at the moment and using the forster micrometer seating die .
Im using 87 gn v-max and having trouble getting consistent seating depth size .
Have set up die as per instruction but when i turn down the die in increments nothing happens .
After a full rotation of the die the projectile then gets pushed too far in.
Do you think the ballistic tip is getting caught up some where .

Ive got a 22-250 die in the same design and never had the problem .
In the 250 i was using 55 soft points so no ballistic tip .
Do you think the tip could be the problem , next question how do i fix it .

Any help appreciated

[No1Mk3]

It is possible the point on the v-max is causing issues, particularly if you are running fairly high neck tension. Have the seater cup modified to ensure it is contacting the ogive and not the point to see if your problem goes away.

[gravel]

What brass? And how are you prepping it?

[straightshooter]

I think No1Mk3 has it mostly right but neck tightness may be a red herring.
You might reread (gasp) the instructions and possibly the troubleshooting guide
https://www.forsterproducts.com/pdf/ins ... er_die.pdf
https://www.forsterproducts.com/pdf/ins ... issue3.pdf
if that doesn't help then ultimately you might have to find somebody to modify your seating stem or procure a custom seating stem from Forster.

[Tilb004]

What brass? And how are you prepping it?

Lapua , once fired .

Normal prep , brush necks , clean primer pockets , FL size .
Brass is trimmed to within spec .

[Tilb004]

It is possible the point on the v-max is causing issues, particularly if you are running fairly high neck tension. Have the seater cup modified to ensure it is contacting the ogive and not the point to see if your problem goes away.

Took die apart and projectile seemed to go in the cup with out a problem .

Got me buggered

[Tilb004]

I think No1Mk3 has it mostly right but neck tightness may be a red herring.
You might reread (gasp) the instructions and possibly the troubleshooting guide
https://www.forsterproducts.com/pdf/ins ... er_die.pdf
https://www.forsterproducts.com/pdf/ins ... issue3.pdf
if that doesn't help then ultimately you might have to find somebody to modify your seating stem or procure a custom seating stem from Forster.

Cheers SS

Its a pain the arse these dies dont accommodate all proj considering the price .

[gravel]

Lapua , once fired .

Normal prep , brush necks , clean primer pockets , FL size .
Brass is trimmed to within spec .

Np. I asked as I remembered reading the following from Stuart at BRT:

"Stuart’s Tips: fair warning.
We are disappointed to have to say this, but if you will be using Hornady brass for either 6mm or 6.5 Creedmoor with any good seating dies like these Forster dies and then expect that an internal neck expander resizing system will help overcome the irregular effects of this brass, you will be disappointed and frustrated for sure. We can’t stress this enough. We feel forced to mention this because we have had to deal with some many reloading problems and complaints about many tools and dies. After buying lots of nice dies and other nice tools like these Forster seaters (or LE Wilson seaters) and get poor results. It’s all because of poor brass. The brass might look good externally but it has very high springback and is particularly tight down in the shoulder/neck junction area. No expander will correct it. It does vary but mostly just springs back to where it was before and the reloaders don’t figure out this out. It is difficult to measure and observe this situation and people reloading seem to just assume an expander type situation will correct it all. But no, bullet seating will be irregular and inconsistent and worse with some bullets (particularly if also using Hornady ELD type bullets). Often will show compression rings where the seater stem contacts (and slips) if bullets are seated deep for sure. There are many other things too which can impact bullet seating tension and pressure, like proper inside case lube. But our advise is this, if you wish to do a some precision reloading and precision shooting…BUY GOOD BRASS. That is is our recommendation from lots of experience. Please don’t blame the tools being used. When diagnosing issues like this, look closely at the components being used first.
Also one tool to assist you in this regard to gain a feel of brass internal size and all the way down the neck would be the Forster inside neck tension gauges. A very helpful tool https://www.brtshooterssupply.com.au/pr ... ion-gauge/"

1F Lapua *should* not be an issue, but failing all else I would gauge them, a lot, and perhaps try an anneal, but it's a thin straw to be grasping.

Assuming the die is the correct one for the cartridge; clean, properly lubed and set up such that normal function should be expected, about the only other thing that comes to mind at the moment is to use some engineers blue to check the actual seating stem/projectile contact patch. Imho not even one of them thar new-fangled skinny bullets with the plastic nipples would get far enough into a Forster seating stem to bump the tip, but ruling it out is a forward step.

gl with it, and please be sure to share the solution once discovered.

[JohnV]

Take one of the projectiles and cut a few mm off the end off the ballistic tip meplat . Then try again to get consistent seating depths with just an empty case . Seat the bullet measure it and pull it out a bit with a puller and seat it again a few times . If suddenly you are getting consistent seating depths then the tip was fouling inside the die . Put a hex nut over the projectile so the projectile goes inside the hole but it sits on the ogive , or drill a hole in the side of a hex nut which works better . Measure with calipers , base of case to hex nut face . The actual measurement is irrelevant your just looking for consistent same measurement . You are not trying to seat the projectile with the micrometer thread are you ? I ask because I have seen that before . If you set up a dummy load just off the lands or max length in any magazine then put it in the press and adjust the micrometer right up then set the die body so it's about midway not locked real tight . Run the cartridge up slowly till it's all the way in if it fouls wind the die body out then gently very gently twist the micrometer down until you feel it stop on the bullet . It will only be a very slight resistance if you have low neck tension and if you go too far you will easily push the bullet in further . So you go very gently until the mic suddenly stops . Then lock the body up . Take a note of the mic setting this is your basic setting to come back to if the groups go bad while playing with the seating depth . Once you find the best position that is still not into the lands and still fits the magazine . Lock the seater stem . Note down that setting as your new seating depth for that load combination , put that setting with the load data card . The other thing is make sure all your cases are fitting easily up inside the die sleeve and are not sticking out at random lengths due to varying base to shoulder case dimensions . Your FLS die might be screwing things up .

[Tilb004]

Take one of the projectiles and cut a few mm off the end off the ballistic tip meplat . Then try again to get consistent seating depths with just an empty case . Seat the bullet measure it and pull it out a bit with a puller and seat it again a few times . If suddenly you are getting consistent seating depths then the tip was fouling inside the die . Put a hex nut over the projectile so the projectile goes inside the hole but it sits on the ogive , or drill a hole in the side of a hex nut which works better . Measure with calipers , base of case to hex nut face . The actual measurement is irrelevant your just looking for consistent same measurement . You are not trying to seat the projectile with the micrometer thread are you ? I ask because I have seen that before . If you set up a dummy load just off the lands or max length in any magazine then put it in the press and adjust the micrometer right up then set the die body so it's about midway not locked real tight . Run the cartridge up slowly till it's all the way in if it fouls wind the die body out then gently very gently twist the micrometer down until you feel it stop on the bullet . It will only be a very slight resistance if you have low neck tension and if you go too far you will easily push the bullet in further . So you go very gently until the mic suddenly stops . Then lock the body up . Take a note of the mic setting this is your basic setting to come back to if the groups go bad while playing with the seating depth . Once you find the best position that is still not into the lands and still fits the magazine . Lock the seater stem . Note down that setting as your new seating depth for that load combination , put that setting with the load data card . The other thing is make sure all your cases are fitting easily up inside the die sleeve and are not sticking out at random lengths due to varying base to shoulder case dimensions . Your FLS die might be screwing things up .

Thanks John
I will cut the tip off the vmax to see what happens .
Thats a good idea at least that will tell me one way or the other .

[straightshooter]

A simpler way would be to remove the seating stem and place a projectile into the stem cavity.
It should be immediately apparent if the projectile is bottoming on the tip or the ogive.

[Tilb004]

A simpler way would be to remove the seating stem and place a projectile into the stem cavity.
It should be immediately apparent if the projectile is bottoming on the tip or the ogive.

Have done that and it's all good .
Received an email from Stuart at BTR supply and it looks like neck tension is the issue .
Now i have to solve that ,thinking of getting the next size up expander .

[JohnV]

I can't see how average neck tension variations would result in varying base to ogive lengths ( seating depth ) . If the projectile can be pushed into the neck at all it should just stop in the same place as set by the die even with low to high neck tension is involved . It is possible if the neck tension is extremely high on some cases but not so high on others then it could be squashing the shoulder in on some and not others . I did suspect something is not right about the FLS die it's operation or the results . The cartridge case might be annealed really badly and the necks are hard but the shoulder is soft maybe or the die expander ball is way too small . There could be a few things going on together which makes it very hard to diagnose . It's hard to fathom how the seater die would be creating the issues as the Forster die seems to have a generous seater stem cavity and is designed for long ogive projectiles . Try some different cases . Try to find out what diameter the expander ball should be for your brand die and caliber , just to confirm it has not been tampered with .

[SCJ429]

I think we can rule out poorly annealed brass, Lapua make premium brass. Your once fired brass will have enough neck tension to hold the bullet without any resizing. Just set up your die with brass you have not sized. Have the bullet seat far longer than you need and then wind down the micro adjuster and measure how much shorter your COAL is as you go.
Massive neck tension is bad, see if you can get a bushing die and measure your brass as it comes out of your chamber to select your bushing size. Consistent light tension is what you are chasing.

[Tilb004]

I can't see how average neck tension variations would result in varying base to ogive lengths ( seating depth ) . If the projectile can be pushed into the neck at all it should just stop in the same place as set by the die even with low to high neck tension is involved . It is possible if the neck tension is extremely high on some cases but not so high on others then it could be squashing the shoulder in on some and not others . I did suspect something is not right about the FLS die it's operation or the results . The cartridge case might be annealed really badly and the necks are hard but the shoulder is soft maybe or the die expander ball is way too small . There could be a few things going on together which makes it very hard to diagnose . It's hard to fathom how the seater die would be creating the issues as the Forster die seems to have a generous seater stem cavity and is designed for long ogive projectiles . Try some different cases . Try to find out what diameter the expander ball should be for your brand die and caliber , just to confirm it has not been tampered with .

John
I have ordered next size up expander ball from stuart at brt.
I also though thigh neck tension wouldn't have made any difference but its leaving a slight dent in the proj.
Once i get new expander ball ill let you know how i go.

[Tilb004]

I think we can rule out poorly annealed brass, Lapua make premium brass. Your once fired brass will have enough neck tension to hold the bullet without any resizing. Just set up your die with brass you have not sized. Have the bullet seat far longer than you need and then wind down the micro adjuster and measure how much shorter your COAL is as you go.
Massive neck tension is bad, see if you can get a bushing die and measure your brass as it comes out of your chamber to select your bushing size. Consistent light tension is what you are chasing.

Hi SCJ

The fired brass isn't enough to hold the bullet it,it falls straight through.
Is it possible that if you bump back shoulders too far it can create more neck tension ?
Got new expander ball coming .
I would try new brass but none in australia .
Thinking about getting some 243 small primer cases and try to make some .
Its frustrating to have a caliber that you can't get cases for , i only have 48 to play with .
Im glad i kept my 243 , can get plenty of reloading supplies .
cheers

[SCJ429]

Your projectiles fall into the case, what reamer did you use? If you used a no turn neck reamer or tighter, it should hold them fine after the first firing. Brass comes with way too much tension and I run the expander mandrel through them for the first loading, neck turn if you need to and shoot. For the second load i recheck the case neck size and if OK, load for the second firing without any sizing. You then can shoot heaps if firings without bumping the shoulder, up to 20 reloads?

i don't have a FL die for 6BR, only a small base body die to occassionally push the shoulder back. I hate dies with expander balls, they are hard on your necks and can bend them. You will need to anneal more often I would think.
Surprised you cannot find a box of BR brass....

[Tilb004]

Your projectiles fall into the case, what reamer did you use? If you used a no turn neck reamer or tighter, it should hold them fine after the first firing. Brass comes with way too much tension and I run the expander mandrel through them for the first loading, neck turn if you need to and shoot. For the second load i recheck the case neck size and if OK, load for the second firing without any sizing. You then can shoot heaps if firings without bumping the shoulder, up to 20 reloads?

i don't have a FL die for 6BR, only a small base body die to occassionally push the shoulder back. I hate dies with expander balls, they are hard on your necks and can bend them. You will need to anneal more often I would think.
Surprised you cannot find a box of BR brass....

I picked up my 243 that I had rebarreled from the same gunsmith today and mentioned I couldn’t find any brass for 6 br .He told me a client of his had given him a rifle and cases to sell , lucky for me they were 6 br.
I’ve rang and email what seemed like every gun shop in Australia with no joy. When was the last time you bought 6 br brass?.
Reloading for the 6 br is harder than i expected.
I’ve been reloading for my 22-250 and 243 for 4 year with very little problems.
Never had a case not take a projectile coz of too much neck tension .
Stuart for brt is helping and I think I’ll get it sorted now .
Thanks for everyone’s input it has helped me understand a lot of what going on with the brass .

[SCJ429]

I haven't ordered 6BR brass for a few years, I have three rifles that use the case so have a stockpile of Lapua cases. Don't get disheartened with it, it is arguably the most successful case in score competition ever. Just get some quality projectiles, great brass, some 2208 and turn up.