30-06 Barnes Data - Help

Reloading equipment, methods, load data, powder and projectile information.

30-06 Barnes Data - Help

Post by jpsauer88 » 03 Aug 2023, 2:07 pm

I have done hours of reading on forums about this and can not find anyone who directly addresses it.

This is concerning H4350 (AR2209) and Varget (AR2208) powder and 30-06 cartridge. These are identical powders as confirmed by ADI.

Barnes 130 TTSX is listed in Barnes 53.5g 3050fps - 56.5g 3225fps
ADI lists 130 Speer - 49g 2979fps - 53.5g 3154fps (48,400CUP)

How can TTSX produce less pressure than a jacketed bullet? Also the velocity sort of correlates with ADI list as correct given Barnes has far exceeded the velocity - does anyone have signs of pressure using Barnes data. Or is barnes data hot as hell?

Second would be the amount of people using the Nosler BT load for Barnes 150g TTSX in 30-06,

Nosler BT - 3006 - ADI Data - AR2209 (H4350) MAX

62.0 grain (C) 3068 fps 48400 cup

Nosler ETIP - 3006 - ADI Data - AR2209 (H4350) MAX

Maximum 57.8 grain (C) 2927 fps 57700 psi

What gets me is the pressure measurement is so different it makes it hard to compare but ADI has always said use a comparable bullet with mono and mono together - in this case, barnes would fit the NOsler etip better than the nosler bt. Most people are using the Nosler BT data - but that being said, if thats applied to the Nosler E-tip it would be on edge if not well into a dangerous load. 57.8 was also compressed!

So - is there a data discrepancy? Or has anyone used these loads and experienced pressure signs? which loads did you use? (SPECIFICALLY H4350/AR2209 with 150TSX or Varget (AR2208) with 130TTSX)? Respectfully, I do not want to hear about other weights, bullets, powders or cartridges.

Your experience will be helpful. Really wish Barnes published their pressure readings. Few manuals do this and its very strange.
jpsauer88
Private
Private
 
Posts: 79
New South Wales

Re: 30-06 Barnes Data - Help

Post by bigrich » 03 Aug 2023, 5:38 pm

be very careful with barnes bullets . they are solid copper . cause they don't have a soft lead core like other bullets they preasure up sooner and quicker than conventional bullets . i used them in a 9.3x62 on buff , they did the job very well . but i have heard they can "swage up" rifle barrel bores in light weight barrels .accuracy goes to sh!t . been told this by two gunsmiths . hope this helps
User avatar
bigrich
Major General
Major General
 
Posts: 4596
Queensland

Re: 30-06 Barnes Data - Help

Post by JohnV » 03 Aug 2023, 6:53 pm

You could also be seeing the variations in velocity that come from the different length barrels and different chambers in the test guns used and temp variations . One lab might have a test gun with a 30 inch barrel the other lab may have a 22 inch barrel which more closely resembles a factory gun . If using ADI powders stick with the ADI loading manual . If using solid projectiles stay down around the starting loads . I am with bigrich , I don't like or use solid projectiles especially in a top accuracy barrel . Might use them in a knock about gun . Solid bullets usually have grooves to help the rifling engrave them so that reduces potential bad effects . How much they can swage up inside a bore I don't know .
JohnV
Warrant Officer C2
Warrant Officer C2
 
Posts: 1161
Other

Re: 30-06 Barnes Data - Help

Post by bladeracer » 03 Aug 2023, 7:36 pm

jpsauer88 wrote:I have done hours of reading on forums about this and can not find anyone who directly addresses it.

This is concerning H4350 (AR2209) and Varget (AR2208) powder and 30-06 cartridge. These are identical powders as confirmed by ADI.

Barnes 130 TTSX is listed in Barnes 53.5g 3050fps - 56.5g 3225fps
ADI lists 130 Speer - 49g 2979fps - 53.5g 3154fps (48,400CUP)

How can TTSX produce less pressure than a jacketed bullet? Also the velocity sort of correlates with ADI list as correct given Barnes has far exceeded the velocity - does anyone have signs of pressure using Barnes data. Or is barnes data hot as hell?

Second would be the amount of people using the Nosler BT load for Barnes 150g TTSX in 30-06,

Nosler BT - 3006 - ADI Data - AR2209 (H4350) MAX

62.0 grain (C) 3068 fps 48400 cup

Nosler ETIP - 3006 - ADI Data - AR2209 (H4350) MAX

Maximum 57.8 grain (C) 2927 fps 57700 psi

What gets me is the pressure measurement is so different it makes it hard to compare but ADI has always said use a comparable bullet with mono and mono together - in this case, barnes would fit the NOsler etip better than the nosler bt. Most people are using the Nosler BT data - but that being said, if thats applied to the Nosler E-tip it would be on edge if not well into a dangerous load. 57.8 was also compressed!

So - is there a data discrepancy? Or has anyone used these loads and experienced pressure signs? which loads did you use? (SPECIFICALLY H4350/AR2209 with 150TSX or Varget (AR2208) with 130TTSX)? Respectfully, I do not want to hear about other weights, bullets, powders or cartridges.

Your experience will be helpful. Really wish Barnes published their pressure readings. Few manuals do this and its very strange.


First, AR2208 and AR2209 are not the same powders. They are marketed in the US by Hodgdon under their own brand names, Varget and H4350, but are different powders. They do not list H4350 for their lighter bullets until you get up to 165gn bullets.

Are you comparing Copper Units of Pressure to PSI? These are two different systems of measuring pressure, and are not directly comparable. I would use Barnes' own data. The 53.5gn to 56.5gn load you have quoted is for H4895 (AR2206H), they don't have data for H4350 (AR2209) with the 130gn bullets.
https://www.barnesbullets.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/30-06Springfield.pdf
Last edited by bladeracer on 04 Aug 2023, 12:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
Practice Strict Gun Control - Precision Counts!
User avatar
bladeracer
Field Marshal
Field Marshal
 
Posts: 12766
Victoria

Re: 30-06 Barnes Data - Help

Post by jpsauer88 » 03 Aug 2023, 10:22 pm

"First, AR2208 and AR2209 are not the same powders. They are marketed in the US by Hodgdon under their own brand names, Varget and H4350, but are different powders. They do not list H4350 for their lighter bullets until you get up to 165gn bullets.

Are you comparing Copper Units of Pressure to PSI? These are two different systems of measuring pressure, and are not directly comparable."

Hello Blade racer, that is precisely what I meant. I was explaining that AR2208 = Varget and H4350 = AR2209. I never meant 2209 and 2208 were the same. Also, I did state that it was difficult to compare due to CUP and PSI being different units "What gets me is the pressure measurement is so different it makes it hard to compare "

I may have been unclear, my point was when you look at barnes data for Varget/AR2208 for a 130g TTSX max is 56.5g 3225fps, but a 130g speer (should have less pressure due to being cup-core bullet shows max as 53.5g 3154fps (48,400CUP). Gavin actually uses the Nosler BT ADI data by loading to 62grains and from what I see by looking at ADI powder, seems way overpressured. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBf0uYGIhfs

The data for H4350 doesnt exist in 150g in the Barnes manual but people in forums are using Nosler BT data from ADI which shows 62grains as max, however, e-tip shows 57.8 as max. A 4.2 grain difference. I was wondering if anyone had experience with this.

Wondering if anyone else has experince loading 130 ttsx with 2208 or 150 ttsx with 2209.
jpsauer88
Private
Private
 
Posts: 79
New South Wales

Re: 30-06 Barnes Data - Help

Post by JohnV » 07 Aug 2023, 2:46 pm

And then you also have case capacity variations which throw pressure calcs out again . Your making it all too complicated . Just start at a lower than recommended load for a given bullet weight with any style of bullet and work up a bit at a time , stop at a safe good shooting and good functioning load that shows no high pressure signs which gives some head room for hotter weather . All the variables have been taken care of .
JohnV
Warrant Officer C2
Warrant Officer C2
 
Posts: 1161
Other

Re: 30-06 Barnes Data - Help

Post by BillyBob257 » 14 Aug 2023, 2:48 pm

Hi jpsaur88.
I hear your pain having recently experienced the same with my 300Win Mag. A lot of frustration, wasted time at the range and money spent on projectiles that you just can't easily purchase trying to work it all out.
Before I go into that story, I will give you my experiences with the 30-06 Barnes 150gn TTSX combination.
The load I settled on was
Barnes 150gn TTSX
59.6 gns AR2209
COAL 85.00 mm
Lapua Cases
Cases prepped and trimmed to 61.10 mm
Federal Large Rifle Match Primers

It was a load recommended by my mate using his Mauser 18. He claimed great accuracy with it. I then tried it in 3 different sauer 100's.
In my Sauer 100 Stainless - it shot 0.6 MOA.
In my Sauer 100 Cherokee - it shot just under 1 MOA
In my Sauer 100 XT - it shot approx. 0.75 MOA.
All these were 3 shots at 100.
In all 3 rifles - no pressure signs. No flattened primers, extractor marks on the cases or sticky bolts. (just don't ask me why I need 3 x Sauers in 30-06 :crazy:

I am currently playing around with some 130 gns Barnes TTSX but don't have anything to share.

Though I know you are not interested in the 30-06 Barnes 168gns combination, just to put it out there in case someone else is interested - I have settled on a load for it in my Sauer 100 Cherokee as it shoots tighter than the 150gns and works well on the sambar when the distances are much closer. ( I dual load this rifle for short range <200 yards and a separate 208gn ELD-M for long range)
Barnes 168gn TTSX
57.5 gns AR2209
COAL 82.3 mm (shorter than the 150gn)
Winchester Cases
Cases prepped and trimmed to 61.10 mm
Federal Large Rifle Match Primers
0.8 MOA - 3 shot group.
Again - no pressure signs in any the Sauers.
Unlike the 150gns which started as a recommended load - this load was worked up properly. The intent was to get something as fast as possible and fairly accurate given its not intended as a long-range load.

Where I really felt your pain was trying to work up a 300 Win mag load using the 168gns Barnes TTSX. Barnes reloading data and ADI are vastly different. Barnes had a max load of 79.9 gns AR2213SC "equivalent" and ADI have it as 75.5 gns AR2213SC for the HDY BTHP. Thats a 4.4 gn difference and not in the direction I would have expected. After going back and forth, second guessing myself, I settled that the 79.9 gns Barnes max load. I worked it up to 79.9gn slowly, it was the most accurate and it did not display any pressure signs.
A mate ran this load through the Quick load software and though it wasn't the exact combination (doesn't list the 168gn TTSX only the 165 gn TTSX) it is hitting just over 65,000 psi.
With this load I am still sleeping at night. My rationale is, its listed as the max in the Barnes reloading data. (I would like to think they know their bullets). ADI powder equivalent site - says that the burning rates of the two powders are equivalent. Most importantly I am not getting any pressure signs in my rifle having worked it up slowly, and I know I will not be using this rifle anywhere else apart from the Victorian high country in winter, so don't need to worry about hot temperatures.
Hope that helps.
BillyBob257
Recruit
Recruit
 
Posts: 5
New South Wales

Re: 30-06 Barnes Data - Help

Post by jpsauer88 » 18 Aug 2023, 4:26 pm

Thank you for the info on the 168 it is helpful and i will work up to that load you posted with 150.

Also, its good to know other people out there have the same issue. This is what i was worried to try, maybe i should work up a grain or so more than the max in adi. I have noticed speer bullets in the adi manual seem to develop more pressure than other jacketed bullets.

Like the barnes 150ttsx adi manual almost same load as the 130g hdy sp for 8208 and 2.5 grains more than the jacketed 150 sie sp
Sp maybe barnes has less pressure than jacketed???
jpsauer88
Private
Private
 
Posts: 79
New South Wales

Re: 30-06 Barnes Data - Help

Post by jpsauer88 » 26 Aug 2023, 11:43 pm

BillyBob257 wrote:Hi jpsaur88.
I hear your pain having recently experienced the same with my 300Win Mag. A lot of frustration, wasted time at the range and money spent on projectiles that you just can't easily purchase trying to work it all out.
Before I go into that story, I will give you my experiences with the 30-06 Barnes 150gn TTSX combination.
The load I settled on was
Barnes 150gn TTSX
59.6 gns AR2209
COAL 85.00 mm
Lapua Cases
Cases prepped and trimmed to 61.10 mm
Federal Large Rifle Match Primers

It was a load recommended by my mate using his Mauser 18. He claimed great accuracy with it. I then tried it in 3 different sauer 100's.
In my Sauer 100 Stainless - it shot 0.6 MOA.
In my Sauer 100 Cherokee - it shot just under 1 MOA
In my Sauer 100 XT - it shot approx. 0.75 MOA.
All these were 3 shots at 100.
In all 3 rifles - no pressure signs. No flattened primers, extractor marks on the cases or sticky bolts. (just don't ask me why I need 3 x Sauers in 30-06 :crazy:

I am currently playing around with some 130 gns Barnes TTSX but don't have anything to share.

Though I know you are not interested in the 30-06 Barnes 168gns combination, just to put it out there in case someone else is interested - I have settled on a load for it in my Sauer 100 Cherokee as it shoots tighter than the 150gns and works well on the sambar when the distances are much closer. ( I dual load this rifle for short range <200 yards and a separate 208gn ELD-M for long range)
Barnes 168gn TTSX
57.5 gns AR2209
COAL 82.3 mm (shorter than the 150gn)
Winchester Cases
Cases prepped and trimmed to 61.10 mm
Federal Large Rifle Match


I could not get that coal, my chamber must be too small 3.316" v 85mm=3.346"

But i loaded to 59 grains. Well see. Il take chrono and post results of 300wsm, 300win and 30-06 with 130 barnes and 150 Barnes (30-06 130 and 150, 300wsm 130 and 300win 150)
jpsauer88
Private
Private
 
Posts: 79
New South Wales

Re: 30-06 Barnes Data - Help

Post by jpsauer88 » 03 Sep 2023, 5:58 pm

Those wondering i tested the 130grain load



56 grains has no pressure signs

1 - 3170fps

2 - 3179fps

3 - 3182fps

4 - 3182fps



55.5 grains gave 3112fps (1 shot)



Starline brass

AR2208/Varget powder

Federal Match primers



1" group 100m
jpsauer88
Private
Private
 
Posts: 79
New South Wales

Re: 30-06 Barnes Data - Help

Post by Rolley » 08 Sep 2023, 10:26 am

I"m heading down the same rabbit hole with outer edge 150gr .
1.possibly reading the same info you have concerning the E tip , they seem to be a tight or has more friction then barns or OEP .
2.I have worked up a load of 61grs (62grs MAX) of 2209( H4350) with SST's (as they are cheaper to throw at paper ) @3260fps. I am wanting to settle loads with consistent MV as the POA will be relatively similar .
3. The problem I am dealing with is compressed loads,as OEP only has a recipe using ADI2208 with an COAL of 81.85mm -. After conversing with Mr Hurt he has recommended to work loads up at 0.3gr increments to catch any pressure signs . My loads started compressing without drop tube @58gr .
Rolley
Recruit
Recruit
 
Posts: 2
Australian Capital Territory

Re: 30-06 Barnes Data - Help

Post by jpsauer88 » 14 Sep 2023, 11:01 pm

Hello
Dont forget outer edge doesnt have the bands that barnes does so might actually be closer to etip data.
Quite honestly look at the data for 120-130grain, compare them and you will find its actually much flatter shooting and tests on penetration from what i have seen, a 130 is def sufficient.

But! I digress, have you considered the CX line from hornady. Expansion tests are outperformimg barnes.

Dono much about outer edge, they could be brilliant, never tried them just had barnes so stuck with it.

I also ran i to compression issues using barnes 150 and 2209 because its as long as a 168grain bullet so it takes significant space in case.

I left the 150s for my brothers 300win and kept the 130s in my 3006. Im loving the flat shooting excited for a hunt now. On YouTube lone star boars got 37" penetration gel blocks with 130g ttsx from 308. Cant need more than that.
jpsauer88
Private
Private
 
Posts: 79
New South Wales

Re: 30-06 Barnes Data - Help

Post by SCJ429 » 15 Sep 2023, 7:49 am

The pressure signs that someone else experienced in their rifle may not relate to your set up. It depends on their barrel, chamber specs, the brass they are using, even the type of primer.
If I wanted to push on to gain more speed I would, use a long barrel, seat the bullets as long as I could. Use quality brass, not Starline. Use a primer with a harder cup, try a magnum primer.
If you are just wondering where load data from Barnes comes from, good luck to you. I wouldn’t waste much of my time on it. Just work up a load for your own set up.
SCJ429
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3219
New South Wales

Re: 30-06 Barnes Data - Help

Post by jpsauer88 » 15 Sep 2023, 12:30 pm

SCJ429 wrote:The pressure signs that someone else experienced in their rifle may not relate to your set up. It depends on their barrel, chamber specs, the brass they are using, even the type of primer.
If I wanted to push on to gain more speed I would, use a long barrel, seat the bullets as long as I could. Use quality brass, not Starline. Use a primer with a harder cup, try a magnum primer.
If you are just wondering where load data from Barnes comes from, good luck to you. I wouldn’t waste much of my time on it. Just work up a load for your own set up.


Ita a hunting rifle, cz 550 not a target setup. The lands are almost excatly on spec. I am 0.5g under max on barnes and am happy with 3180fps, no animal will notice a 50fps difference from chasing max velocity.
jpsauer88
Private
Private
 
Posts: 79
New South Wales

Re: 30-06 Barnes Data - Help

Post by SCJ429 » 17 Sep 2023, 9:09 am

No need to consider the Barnes data and how they got over 3200 fps then. I was explaining how you get there. Load data is just a guide and you end up doing what you did, work up a load that Gives you a speed that you are happy with.
Nice rifle the 550 CZ, I shot one chambered in 450 Rigby.
SCJ429
Lieutenant Colonel
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Posts: 3219
New South Wales

Re: 30-06 Barnes Data - Help

Post by jpsauer88 » 19 Sep 2023, 12:20 pm

SCJ429 wrote:No need to consider the Barnes data and how they got over 3200 fps then. I was explaining how you get there. Load data is just a guide and you end up doing what you did, work up a load that Gives you a speed that you are happy with.
Nice rifle the 550 CZ, I shot one chambered in 450 Rigby.


Yea they are nice rifles - i love them, i figured they have a strong following with some people. Unfortunate CZ600 went backwards... and fortunate that Winchester quickly learnt of their error and backflipped to bring back the beloved Model 70. Hopefully CZ does the same thing... looking unlikely though.
jpsauer88
Private
Private
 
Posts: 79
New South Wales

Re: 30-06 Barnes Data - Help

Post by jpsauer88 » 11 Apr 2024, 8:51 pm

Those wondering
I tried 56.5 (max barnes) no pressure signs at all, no sticky bolt etc.

YMMV alway work up slowly.

56.5 -
5 shots
3241
3249
3241
3239
3236

Sd not so great, but, at a nice 1.8" group 200m i was happy.
jpsauer88
Private
Private
 
Posts: 79
New South Wales

Re: 30-06 Barnes Data - Help

Post by deye243 » 12 Apr 2024, 2:21 am

jpsauer88 wrote:Those wondering
I tried 56.5 (max barnes) no pressure signs at all, no sticky bolt etc.

YMMV alway work up slowly.

56.5 -
5 shots
3241
3249
3241
3239
3236

Sd not so great, but, at a nice 1.8" group 200m i was happy.

Sounds good to me ......
Now I have found that such a close spread don't mean a dead animal as sometimes it means crap accuracy.

one of the best loads I had years ago had s**t spread and sd but it accounted for a lot of animals so don't get all wrapped up on all this load development you see on forums it don't mean crap unless you can put an animal on the ground
User avatar
deye243
Lieutenant
Lieutenant
 
Posts: 2286
Victoria


Back to top
 
Return to Reloading ammunition