45/70 in AR2205

[Wallaby stew]

I'm about to load some 405 grain cast 45/70 loads in AR2207 but I was wondering if anyone has had success with using AR2205 in this chambering.
I'm not after super high velocity, 1300-1400 fps is plenty.
Yes I know there are probably better powders but I would like to hear from anyone that uses AR2205 specifically.
My rifle is a Miroku/ Winchester model 86 with a 24" barrel.

[in2anity]

Simply, AR2205 is too fast for the 45/70

[mickb]

Have heard that H4227 is AR2205. Quite a few threads out there on US forums using H4227 and IMR4227 in 45-70( no idea the relative difference between those two) if that helps.

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showth ... od-fit-for
https://www.marlinowners.com/threads/ho ... ads.19428/
https://ozgunlobby.com/t/general-adi220 ... ion/3264/5
https://www.marlinowners.com/threads/be ... 5-70.9495/
https://www.go2gbo.com/threads/load-for ... fle.77551/

[deye243]

Simply, AR2205 is too fast for the 45/70

Maybe not for the sloooow speed he is looking for

[No1_49er]

29gn of 2205 is a little over 60% of case capacity and gives a velocity of 1450fps, according to QuickLOAD, which also reports a mild chamber pressure and a "smooth" pressure curve.
I have never used that load - please use this theoretical data with caution.

[Wallaby stew]

Thanks for your input on this, I don't think I will persue a load for this bullet in this powder. Maybe with lighter projectiles it might be practical but I suspect I might encounter pressure issues so I'll give it a miss.
Thanks again.

[No1_49er]

Thanks for your input on this, I don't think I will persue a load for this bullet in this powder. Maybe with lighter projectiles it might be practical but I suspect I might encounter pressure issues so I'll give it a miss.
Thanks again.

Don't be too quick to write 2205 off.
Go to this link (as posted above) https://ozgunlobby.com/t/general-adi220 ... ion/3264/5 and review what danmac says about it. He, BTW, shoots a LOT of rifle silhouette, so don't discount his experience.

[Wallaby stew]

Point taken, I've loaded trail boss in the pumpkin launcher and it shoots superbly but too slow to be of any use for anything.
I've been using a 42gn load of 2206H but I can't get any accuracy with this powder in any sort of velocity. I investigated jacketed for an accurate hunting load which would be ideal but currently they are running at $2 per projectile so it's back to the cast option.
You're right I shouldn't write it off, I use ar2205 in my 44/40 model 73 and there is no published data for that combination in that powder and it's by far the best load I've found for that rifle , all the other published loads are for pistol powder.
Thanks for that link.

[Obie73]

For accurate loads in lever action rifles with straight walled pistol ammo such as 44-40, how close practically speaking is 2205 to 2207?

I've got a Uberti 73 19" carbine in 357 and a Miroku Win 73 44-40 and so far have just started hand loading for the 357, using 2207. I was pleasantly surprised with my newly acquired accuracy with my first loads the other day. I will be out at the range again soon.
I've heard it said that 2207 gives virtually the same results as 2205 in at least one 357 mag rifle. I haven't started loading for the 44-40 yet but if I do I will be using 2207.

[mickb]

2207 is significantly slower than 2205. Top loads in 357 or 44mag will be several hundred fps lower using 2207, which will translate to probably 50% the power level. It is usable though, a 44-40 in an 1873 my guess is 2207 may get you to 44-40 original velocities(1200fps) which is okay if thats what you wanted in the first place. For 357 and 44 magnum loads again you will be a long long way behind typical hunting power.

[straightshooter]

FYI
My old Dupont Handloaders Guide lists the following load for 45-70 Govt COL 2.560"
Win. 405 grain SP, IMR4227 30.0 grain, 1465 FPS, 26500 CUP
My old Hercules Handloaders guide lists the following load for 45-70 Govt COL 2.575"
Cast lead 385 grain GC, 2400 25.0 grain, 1340 FPS, 21300 CUP
As can be seen, at 21300 and 26500 copper units of pressure these loads are intended for the weakest rifle they might ever be used in.
IMR4227 and Hercules 2400 are listed as equivalents to AR2205 so you should be quite safe transcribing these loads to AR2205 and using them in your Win 1886 which will presumably be made with improved modern metallurgy.

[Wallaby stew]

I've read as much as I can find on those two powders and in the early days black powder was replaced by Dupont #1 which has a similar burn rate to IMR4198 wich is similar if not the same powder as AR2207 and Dupont #2 which was replaced by IMR 4227 which is AR2205. There are other differences as well but the burn rate is much the same except the with the smokeless powders the rate is more controlled to prevent pressure spikes. I don't think it's possible to do any damage with black powder so if you load with the early substitutes in mind you should be in the ballpark.
I've got some old data somewhere, I'll see if I can find it.

[bigpete]

I've used 2205 in a 45-70 with great results

[Wallaby stew]

IMG_20230821_122659~3.jpg (704.38 KiB) Viewed 1186 times

I've just answered my own question.
I've got an old (1996) ADI reloading manual and it has the loads I'm looking for.
These loads aren't listed in the 2013 manual strangely, perhaps it's because we live in dangerous times?
Thanks for your input.

[Obie73]

Thanks for that section from the 1996 ADI manual, Wallaby stew! I'm definitely going to get the latest ADI manual. I'm guessing that for .357 magnum it won't have data for 2207 as that powder would be considered as being too slow for that round no doubt. Even though people are using it. Any chance you could confirm that from the '96 manual? Another pic of the relevant page would be really interesting.

[bladeracer]

Thanks for that section from the 1996 ADI manual, Wallaby stew! I'm definitely going to get the latest ADI manual. I'm guessing that for .357 magnum it won't have data for 2207 as that powder would be considered as being too slow for that round no doubt. Even though people are using it. Any chance you could confirm that from the '96 manual? Another pic of the relevant page would be really interesting.

This is the 6th Edition.
https://www.ballisticstudies.com/site/ballisticstudies/files/ADI%20Handloaders%20guide%202013.pdf

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Screenshot 2023-08-21 145454.jpg (207.54 KiB) Viewed 1171 times

[Wallaby stew]

This is a page from the 1996 ADI manual for .357

[Obie73]

Thanks Wallaby stew. Good to know!

[Sarco]

OnLine version of current ADI data located under the Powder tab on the home page. - Covers Pistol, Rifle, Single Action, Shotgun etc.

http://www.adiworldclass.com.au/data-rifle/

[jpsauer88]

There is adi data for CAST in 444 MARLIN it was emailed to me by them.

LOADING DATA
.444 MARLIN
240 GRAIN LEAD PROJECTILES
Components
Cases: - Remington
Primers: - Remington 9 ½ Large Rifle
Projectiles: - 240 grain Cast Lead Semi-Wadcutter
Barrel: - .444 Marlin proof, pressures test barrel
1:38 twist
C.O.L.: - 64.61mm (2.540 inches)
SAAMI Limits: - Loading Limits 42,000-psi chamber pressure
(Piezo pressures)
TABLE 1
Propellant
Type
Charge Weight
(grains)
Velocity
(ft/s)
Chamber Press.
(psi) Piezo
AR2205 23.0 1552 11,800
AR2205 26.0 1712 16,100
AR2205 29.0 1893 23,000