Didn't go bang

[Wallaby stew]

I loaded up a few rounds to trial in my 45/70 Miroku 1886.
First trial was 40 gn of AR2206H, four shots and only three ignited. The primer ignited because the bullet traveled half way down the barrel. The remaining three shots went around an inch at fifty meters so no issues there.
I blew the powder out of the reciever with the compressor and tried the next lot
Second trial was 40gn of AR2208 and once again only three ignited. Same deal, bullet half way down the barrel.
I've used 2206H in this rifle since I've had it and my loads were 42gr and never had a problem so I'm wondering if these loads are too low to burn in this configuration even though they are ADI recommendations for a starting load but it's really odd that it happened with both powders. I've been handloading and casting for over forty years and tried hundreds of different loads in a lot of rifles and never seen this.
I'm guessing the loads were to light to gain enough pressure to burn.

[straightshooter]

Likely problem is that there is just too much air space in the cartridge which dissipates the effect of the primer.
You probably have also experienced slight hangfires on those rounds that left the barrel.
Try an over powder wad which could simply be a balled up tissue or toilet paper.
Magnum primers might make a difference if you don't want to use a wad.

[Oldbloke]

To state i think the obvious, this could be dangerous. Straight shooter could be right.

BUT, what was the bullet?

[Wallaby stew]

I think you're right, I might go to magnum primers, the thought did occur to me.
The only reason I dropped the charge down is because I am using " as cast" to try and improve accuracy which seems to have worked so I'll step the charge up now. At least I've got an accurate slug to measure the bore diameter with.
I've had trouble finding a bullet that is the right fit for this rifle which is why I've used as cast and also keeping the velocity close to but under 1500fps.
I would use jacketed but they are $2 each when I can find them.

[Wallaby stew]

To state i think the obvious, this could be dangerous. Straight shooter could be right.

BUT, what was the bullet?

It was a cast 405gn WW lead. I think it would only be dangerous if I didn't remove the bullets from the barrel before the next shot.
The bullet's were half way down the barrel or more so the primers were doing some work.

[bladeracer]

I loaded up a few rounds to trial in my 45/70 Miroku 1886.
First trial was 40 gn of AR2206H, four shots and only three ignited. The primer ignited because the bullet travelled half way down the barrel. The remaining three shots went around an inch at fifty meters so no issues there.
I blew the powder out of the reciever with the compressor and tried the next lot
Second trial was 40gn of AR2208 and once again only three ignited. Same deal, bullet half way down the barrel.
I've used 2206H in this rifle since I've had it and my loads were 42gr and never had a problem so I'm wondering if these loads are too low to burn in this configuration even though they are ADI recommendations for a starting load but it's really odd that it happened with both powders. I've been handloading and casting for over forty years and tried hundreds of different loads in a lot of rifles and never seen this.
I'm guessing the loads were to light to gain enough pressure to burn.

AR2206H and AR2208 are the slowest powders ADI suggest for the cartridge. Combined with a very light charge of 40gn it might just be marginal for ignition. The fact that the primer moved the bullet without igniting the charge says to me that the flame went over the top of the powder only, similar to issues we had getting W748 to ignite in .303 last year. Try magnum primers as that will probably sort it. Or using a filler on top of the powder charge to keep it in the bottom of the case should help. Dacron fibres or lightly scrunched tissue paper works, but a disc of paper over the powder first is a good idea to keep the powder in place.
Also, seating the bullet significantly deeper helps reduce the air space and raise the powder level but might not be possible in some lever-actions.

[bigpete]

Crimped ?

[Oldbloke]

"I think it would only be dangerous if I didn't remove the bullets from the barrel before the next shot." That is what I was referring to.


I found this in the 3rd Ed of the ADI manual.

Says 40gr of AR2208 is OK??
Logically 2206H should be ok too.

Old 4570Capture.JPG (62.48 KiB) Viewed 2206 times

ADI would not recommend a load that has ignition issues.
Perhaps as BP has suggested crimp.
Personally I would email ADI and ask the question.

[Wallaby stew]

Crimped ?

Just a gentle roll crimp. Lee FC die should be here this week.

[bladeracer]

"I think it would only be dangerous if I didn't remove the bullets from the barrel before the next shot." That is what I was referring to.


I found this in the 3rd Ed of the ADI manual.

Says 40gr of AR2208 is OK??
Logically 2206H should be ok too.

The attachment Old 4570Capture.JPG is no longer available

ADI would not recommend a load that has ignition issues.
Perhaps as BP has suggested crimp.
Personally I would email ADI and ask the question.

The loads are in the current online manual as well.

[Wallaby stew]

Thanks for the input. I'll try some filler material tomorrow with the same loads. I have a factory crimp die in the mail and I'll use that as well when it arrives.
I could understand it if I went under ADI recommendations but this isn't the case here.
I've been playing around with mouse fart loads for years without an issue but these aren't mouse fart loads.

[Oldbloke]

Thanks for the input. I'll try some filler material tomorrow with the same loads. I have a factory crimp die in the mail and I'll use that as well when it arrives.
I could understand it if I went under ADI recommendations but this isn't the case here.
I've been playing around with mouse fart loads for years without an issue but these aren't mouse fart loads.

That's one of my concerns. These are ADI recommended loads. You should not have this issue.

The max for ar2206h is 48 grains. You should be able to load back to as low as 28.8gr without issue under the 60% rule for a 405gr cast bullet.

For 2208 max is 50gr so under the 75% rule down to 37.5gr.

Don't take this the wrong way, but is it possible you loaded wrong or no powder?

[straightshooter]

Don't expect the crimp die to work miracles.

[Wallaby stew]

Thanks for the input. I'll try some filler material tomorrow with the same loads. I have a factory crimp die in the mail and I'll use that as well when it arrives.
I could understand it if I went under ADI recommendations but this isn't the case here.
I've been playing around with mouse fart loads for years without an issue but these aren't mouse fart loads.

That's one of my concerns. These are ADI recommended loads. You should not have this issue.

The max for ar2206h is 48 grains. You should be able to load back to as low as 28.8gr without issue under the 60% rule for a 405gr cast bullet.

For 2208 max is 50gr so under the 75% rule down to 37.5gr.

Don't take this the wrong way, but is it possible you loaded wrong or no powder?

There was a lot of powder in the barrel after each shot. After the first shot I had to use the air compressor to clear the reciever. After the second time I put a piece of cloth in the opened reciever to prevent it from clogging up the works, there was enough powder in there to launch the bullet.
Before I seat bullets I always take the block they are standing in into the bright light to see if they look uniform just as a safety precaution incase of a double charge, nothing caught my eye. I personally don't think it was a charge issue as it certainly didn't look like it.

[Obie73]

Not the same calibre as Wallaby stew, but the other day I hand loaded 50 .357 mag rounds, using a starting load listed in the NH manual, plus a slighly increased load in-between this and maximum load. This was my first time loading since I was a teenager, when I did only about 30 rounds of 30-30 with a Lee loader. This time I've got a press. Well, I went off the range to see how things went. Got the "range is now open, you may now commence firing" from the RO, put my first round into the chamber of the lever action (loading singly at this stage), carefully aimed, and squeezed off the shot. Click.
Nothing happened. I waited and waited, but it didn't go off. Much later on I looked at it carefully and on that particular round the impression in the primer looks slightly shallower. This was one of the starting load rounds. My very first shot with my new hand loads and it doesn't even go off! I started to think Oh No! are many of them going to be like this? What could I have done wrong? So, long story short, every single one of the other rounds fired perfectly and I got some very encouraging results with accuracy. I went home and did some research and found out I probably seated the primers a bit too gingerly. Apparently they should be seated just below flush with the rear plane of the cartridge. Mine looked more like they were exactly flush, with maybe one or two just a thousandth of an inch or so higher. So hopefully that was all it was. I don't want that to happen again. I used the press to seat the primers and next time I'm going to use a Hornady hand priming tool. I used AR2207.
Not suggesting this is what the problem is with the 45-70, but I just thought I would mention this here in case it's of use to someone. I wonder if the slower powders are just a bit more finicky.

[Oldbloke]

Thanks for the input. I'll try some filler material tomorrow with the same loads. I have a factory crimp die in the mail and I'll use that as well when it arrives.
I could understand it if I went under ADI recommendations but this isn't the case here.
I've been playing around with mouse fart loads for years without an issue but these aren't mouse fart loads.

That's one of my concerns. These are ADI recommended loads. You should not have this issue.

The max for ar2206h is 48 grains. You should be able to load back to as low as 28.8gr without issue under the 60% rule for a 405gr cast bullet.

For 2208 max is 50gr so under the 75% rule down to 37.5gr.

Don't take this the wrong way, but is it possible you loaded wrong or no powder?

There was a lot of powder in the barrel after each shot. After the first shot I had to use the air compressor to clear the reciever. After the second time I put a piece of cloth in the opened reciever to prevent it from clogging up the works, there was enough powder in there to launch the bullet.
Before I seat bullets I always take the block they are standing in into the bright light to see if they look uniform just as a safety precaution incase of a double charge, nothing caught my eye. I personally don't think it was a charge issue as it certainly didn't look like it.

I do same, use a torch.

Ok. Plenty of powder too. Sooo, just doubt that ADI would recommend a load that could have ignition issues.

Wrong powder, too old, damp?

Primer pushed bullet part way into barrel, so, that would eliminate them I imagine.

Try the tissue I guess.

Something NQR somewhere.

[Wallaby stew]

Not the same calibre as Wallaby stew, but the other day I hand loaded 50 .357 mag rounds, using a starting load listed in the NH manual, plus a slighly increased load in-between this and maximum load. This was my first time loading since I was a teenager, when I did only about 30 rounds of 30-30 with a Lee loader. This time I've got a press. Well, I went off the range to see how things went. Got the "range is now open, you may now commence firing" from the RO, put my first round into the chamber of the lever action (loading singly at this stage), carefully aimed, and squeezed off the shot. Click.
Nothing happened. I waited and waited, but it didn't go off. Much later on I looked at it carefully and on that particular round the impression in the primer looks slightly shallower. This was one of the starting load rounds. My very first shot with my new hand loads and it doesn't even go off! I started to think Oh No! are many of them going to be like this? What could I have done wrong? So, long story short, every single one of the other rounds fired perfectly and I got some very encouraging results with accuracy. I went home and did some research and found out I probably seated the primers a bit too gingerly. Apparently they should be seated just below flush with the rear plane of the cartridge. Mine looked more like they were exactly flush, with maybe one or two just a thousandth of an inch or so higher. So hopefully that was all it was. I don't want that to happen again. I used the press to seat the primers and next time I'm going to use a Hornady hand priming tool. I used AR2207.
Not suggesting this is what the problem is with the 45-70, but I just thought I would mention this here in case it's of use to someone. I wonder if the slower powders are just a bit more finicky.

I had a similar problem with my Remington 7600 pump .308. Leveled it on a dingo and click.
The problem in this case was a grease build up in the bolt around the firing pin. I use lanolin to lube my rifles and it can go gummy in the winter.
Keep in mind that if it was the first shot then it didn't happen again I would guess that the hammer has pushed all the gunk out of the way on the first strike, which is why it only happened on the first strike and not subsequent strikes. Check for goo in the firing pin housing.

[Wallaby stew]

Thanks for the input. I'll try some filler material tomorrow with the same loads. I have a factory crimp die in the mail and I'll use that as well when it arrives.
I could understand it if I went under ADI recommendations but this isn't the case here.
I've been playing around with mouse fart loads for years without an issue but these aren't mouse fart loads.

That's one of my concerns. These are ADI recommended loads. You should not have this issue.

The max for ar2206h is 48 grains. You should be able to load back to as low as 28.8gr without issue under the 60% rule for a 405gr cast bullet.

For 2208 max is 50gr so under the 75% rule down to 37.5gr.

Don't take this the wrong way, but is it possible you loaded wrong or no powder?

There was a lot of powder in the barrel after each shot. After the first shot I had to use the air compressor to clear the reciever. After the second time I put a piece of cloth in the opened reciever to prevent it from clogging up the works, there was enough powder in there to launch the bullet.
Before I seat bullets I always take the block they are standing in into the bright light to see if they look uniform just as a safety precaution incase of a double charge, nothing caught my eye. I personally don't think it was a charge issue as it certainly didn't look like it.

I do same, use a torch.

Ok. Plenty of powder too. Sooo, just doubt that ADI would recommend a load that could have ignition issues.

Wrong powder, too old, damp?

Primer pushed bullet part way into barrel, so, that would eliminate them I imagine.

Try the tissue I guess.

Something NQR somewhere.

Magnum primers are out of the question by the looks of it.
I take a lot of care with my powder storage, it gets hot up here on the Cape relentlessly for months so the powders stay in the house where the aircon runs continuesly right through the hot wet season to keep the air temp around 24 and stable. I try and prevent any temperature change.
I love my powders!

[Oldbloke]

Suggest you make use of the email address below. I emailed them back in 2014 and they were pretty helpful.

Ensure you provide all details.

Screenshot_20230829-141547_Samsung Notes.jpg (38.59 KiB) Viewed 2062 times

[bigpete]

Suggest you make use of the email address below. I emailed them back in 2014 and they were pretty helpful.

Ensure you provide all details.

Screenshot_20230829-141547_Samsung Notes.jpg

You mean pretty useless don't you ?

[Oldbloke]

Wasnt my experience Pete.

[Larry]

I dont think it is an amount of powder issue. I would be looking at damp or wet powder. Were your cases completely dry? I have seen a bloke do exactly the same thing his problem was that his cases were not completely dry a drip of water was still left in the primer flash hole.

[Wallaby stew]

I dont think it is an amount of powder issue. I would be looking at damp or wet powder. Were your cases completely dry? I have seen a bloke do exactly the same thing his problem was that his cases were not completely dry a drip of water was still left in the primer flash hole.

I never got any water near these, they've been fired a couple of times over the last two weeks and kept in a Tupperware container with the lid on.

[bigpete]

Wasnt my experience Pete.

Been mine every time I tried. I even caught them out once,asked them for ADI data from a mate I thought I'd lost,they reckoned it didn't exist,I found it again and sent them a copy saying well you supplied it before ! Lol

[Obie73]

What's the best and safest way to deal with a round that didn't go bang at all? Pull the bullet carefully, tip out the contents, and then what do you do with the live 'cap'?

[bladeracer]

What's the best and safest way to deal with a round that didn't go bang at all? Pull the bullet carefully, tip out the contents, and then what do you do with the live 'cap'?

I hammer the bullet out with the inertia hammer (can be impossible with light bullets, like the .204), dump the powder back in the bottle (if I know for sure what it is), decap normally but save the primer (they normally get sent down the catch tube), resize the case, re-seat the primer, re-charge, re-seat the bullet, go shoot. Make sure you don't lose the anvil from the primer.

[Oldbloke]

Was the problem ever identified?