Bullet test medium?

[Oldbloke]

What are peoples thoughts.
Last week i wanted to check if a bullet would mushroom on game. At least get an idea. So, i set up some long life milk containers filled with water along with some carboard between them.
125gr bullet at abt 2700fps.

Bullet passed straight through! Bullet lost. And little sign of mushrooming.
I know wet news paper was popular once but not much of that around these days. Lol

Planning another test soon and adding some additional cardboard. Perhaps some light plywood.

Is what i did a fair test?
Any ideas, suggestions?
KISS

Not interested in mucking around with gel

Edit. Forgot image.

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[Blr243]

100 mm pvc pipe 3 m long. Not the thin walled 90 mm stuff. About half way along put a t junction Leave it open this is where u fill it with water. It’s also a pressure relief point Cap one end Plastic bag and duct tape one end. Peg it to the ground. Assuming safe backstop shoot the the replaceable bag. Bullet found and recovered inside tube. I made one but never tested it. I’m hoping the open t junction provides enough pressure relief to stop the pipe blowing up. A while back I tried sorceing gel powder but had no luck Someone said it’s available at Ali express and Amazon. Too much stuffing around. Not easy to cut the bullet out of the gel

[Billo]

Road Kill, thou try to make it fresh ....

Please post up the results

I looked into buying some Plastisol to do this (what fishing lures are made of) but the cost to make a pair of 10kg blocks what too much

[JohnV]

The best thing I have used that I could get hold of is old wet phone books tied into a bundle but it is very difficult to reproduce an exact medium as even with say a pig hitting it in different spots changes the resistance .

[Oldbloke]

The best thing I have used that I could get hold of is old wet phone books tied into a bundle but it is very difficult to reproduce an exact medium as even with say a pig hitting it in different spots changes the resistance .

100%

[Oldbloke]

OK, a quick google tells me a 22lr will travel about 3ft in water.
Sooo, my test medium was totally inadequate for a 125gr doing about 2700fps.
(16" of water and a few sheets of cardboard )
Need a simple, portable solution as i will be out bush when i do this as i check my sights.

[bladeracer]

What are peoples thoughts.
Last week i wanted to check if a bullet would mushroom on game. At least get an idea. So, i set up some long life milk containers filled with water along with some carboard between them.
125gr bullet at abt 2700fps.

Bullet passed straight through! Bullet lost. And little sign of mushrooming.
I know wet news paper was popular once but not much of that around these days. Lol

Planning another test soon and adding some additional cardboard. Perhaps some light plywood.

Is what i did a fair test?
Any ideas, suggestions?
KISS

Not interested in mucking around with gel

The ideal is to find a lump of flesh and bone similar to the game you plan to use it on. If that's too difficult then I try it on lots of different media, soft and hard wood, clay, dirt, wet paper or rags, different thicknesses of steel, etc. Shoot a bunch of stuff and get an overall general idea of how hard the bullet is. We always have boles of wood - eucs, pines, all sorts so they're always handy to test in, both in cross-grain and end-grain. Setting up thin pieces with gaps between them gives very different results to shooting into a solid stack of wood. The dams are clay so it's easy to drag up a good bucketful for testing, I used to enjoy exploding clay lumps when I was a kid.

Water I've found is hopeless, it's good if you want to recover undamaged bullets for examination, not for deformation. But it's also difficult to work with due to gravity, it's easiest to fill a drum and climb up on the roof to shoot down into it.

Or just don't worry about whether the bullet might deform and simply take out the central nervous system.

[bladeracer]

The best thing I have used that I could get hold of is old wet phone books tied into a bundle but it is very difficult to reproduce an exact medium as even with say a pig hitting it in different spots changes the resistance .

I used to shoot phone books but I haven't seen them for years.
Paper has become a problem now as we use the scrap for lighting the fires every day and we just don't get much paper nowadays. The local rag is not very thick and newsprint seems difficult to ignite now and makes very little heat, we use A4 copier paper to light the fires most of the time, it burns so much better than newsprint, and cheaper than firelighters. I buy cartons of A4 and A3 for targets, after punching air holes through them they go into the fire lighting box.

[Blr243]

A hamas terrorist hung upside down from a tree with a meat hook thru his ankle .. remember that shots to the balls won’t provide enough resistance to result in usefull information on bullet performance

[Oldbloke]

A hamas terrorist hung upside down from a tree with a meat hook thru his ankle .. remember that shots to the balls won’t provide enough resistance to result in useful information on bullet performance

Yes, that is one method that would work.

Putin too?

As I will be away camping needs to be very portable, light weight.
I'm beginning to think perhaps similar set up but fill the milk cartons (easily obtained) with alternating cardboard and loose dirt/mud. (fill them up on the day backed up with some pine or chip board to ensure the bullet is captured. Something like some thickish plastic or 3 ply on front to simulate skin.

[Blr243]

What bullet is it ? And what is it for ?

[Oldbloke]

What bullet is it ? And what is it for ?

Tipped sierra2121. 125grMatch King HP. (500 very cheap)
My usual 130gr SP is currently unobtainamle. still have a few tho.
But HP is about 0.2mm, tiny.
Have discovered MK tend to act like FMJ on game. Once tipped a 1.3mm HP is exposed so hoping they will work ok.

Intended use fox up to fallow.

Ill just sell them if i cant make it work.

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[bladeracer]

As I will be away camping needs to be very portable, light weight.
I'm beginning to think perhaps similar set up but fill the milk cartons (easily obtained) with alternating cardboard and loose dirt/mud. (fill them up on the day backed up with some pine or chip board to ensure the bullet is captured. Something like some thickish plastic or 3 ply on front to simulate skin.

In that case let your ballistic medium walk itself into the bush. Shoot a deer, pig, goat, etc then shoot your test rounds into the thickest parts of it and recover them for evaluation, shoot downwards so your bullets are stopped by the ground if they do pass through. If you want to see how they perform at range you'll have to load some reduced loads for testing as well to replicate the velocity remaining at 100m, 200m, 300m etc.

I had to shoot a cast sheep five weeks ago, so I checked out the remains the other day when I was up in the same place. Nothing left but the spine with ribs still attached, about 20m from where I remembered (I photographed it so have GPS coordinates to put me close enough to sweep the detector around), and the wool has all blown another 30m across the hill. The skull is missing. I'll have to take a metal detector up there and see if I can recover the bullet on the ground. Unfortunately I had taken my extra ammo out of my kit while moving to the second property and had left it in the vehicle or I would have tried some subsonic 145gn SP and some high-velocity 100gn HP on it as well to recover later.

[Blr243]

Tipped like that I think u got nothing to worry about.

[Oldbloke]

Tipped like that I think u got nothing to worry about.

Yeh, Its more about confirmation.
Cup thickness is abt average for a hunting bullet.
Lead is about average BHN for a hunting bullet too.

[bladeracer]

Tipped like that I think u got nothing to worry about.

Yeh, Its more about confirmation.
Cup thickness is abt average for a hunting bullet.
Lead is about average BHN for a hunting bullet too.

I think having an expansion initiator, like a metal or plastic tip, a ball bearing, or simply an exposed lead tip really helps with consistency compared to an open hollow point. With an open bullet whatever material (grass, mud, hair, skin, etc) is first to strike the cavity becomes your initiator, making it very random.

[Oldbloke]

Does that mean IYO all hollow points are unreliable?

[bladeracer]

Does that mean IYO all hollow points are unreliable?

I guess I do lean that way, I prefer a soft-point over a hollow-point bullet.

[Oldbloke]

I prefer SPs too. But HPs work for millions, so Im ok with them.

[bladeracer]

I prefer SPs too. But HPs work for millions, so Im ok with them.

They do indeed, I like HP's for high-velocity small game bullets, not so much when penetration is required. I use 100gn HP in 7mm-08 for small game and carry them with me (as well as subsonic 145gn) and I'll test some on dead fallow to see what the bullet does. The neck of the fallow is not very thick so I'd have to shoot it after it's on the ground (from my soft-point load) to ensure I can recover the bullet, though I'm not sure there'll be much bullet to recover, I would expect it to blow up very well. The chest wall of the fallow is not thick so I feel the 100gn HP would do very well into the heart/lung, if I were to take such a shot - I prefer head/neck shots generally.

[JohnV]

Does that mean IYO all hollow points are unreliable?

I guess I do lean that way, I prefer a soft-point over a hollow-point bullet.

Protected Point projectiles aka hollow points are not unreliable if the meplat is the right size for the job .
Most modern HP makers seem to want to close the meplat so small to get higher BC readings and that makes them more like a Full Metal Jacket . Soft nose bullets are fine and perform very well but the nose of the bullet can suffer damage bumping around in ammo boxes in the 4x4 , in ammo belts etc. Also it's more reliable to make a Protected Point bullet at home because they eject better from the point forming die and soft nose can get damaged during ejection and usually needs an extra lead tipping die to properly form it .
If you have protected point bullets that will not expand properly then buy a meplat trimmer ( possibly Tubb or Hoover don't buy a Sinclair ) and cut the meplat back to a larger opening . These are my 308 meplats for hunting they measure .055 ( 1.4 mm ) on the outside of the meplat . Still small enough to conserve some BC but large enough to initiate expansion at longer ranges on soft skinned game . They drop anything in their way .

[Oldbloke]

John v

If u dont mind?

1. What is the HP diameter?
2. What is the cup thickness?
3. What is the BHN of the lead core?

[JohnV]

The Core BHN is close to 5 , the meplats outside is .055 it's too hard to measure the hole .
Cup thickness no idea never measured it . Think the CH jacket is fairly parallel inside and .021 thick near the base but the J4 Jacket is very parallel and about ,018 thick . It's for target bullets but once it is core bonded the jacket thickness is less relevant .Cup thickness is not a parameter I need to model a bullet .

[JohnV]

Tipped like that I think u got nothing to worry about.

Yeh, Its more about confirmation.
Cup thickness is abt average for a hunting bullet.
Lead is about average BHN for a hunting bullet too.

I think having an expansion initiator, like a metal or plastic tip, a ball bearing, or simply an exposed lead tip really helps with consistency compared to an open hollow point. With an open bullet whatever material (grass, mud, hair, skin, etc) is first to strike the cavity becomes your initiator, making it very random.

In a 308 they don't expand as easy as you think I have shot game through screening bush and meters of tall plains grass and it never stopped the bullet doing the job .

[bladeracer]

In a 308 they don't expand as easy as you think I have shot game through screening bush and meters of tall plains grass and it never stopped the bullet doing the job .

No, I don't think they're that soppy, even blowing up upon contact I would still expect the remains of a heavy but lightly-constructed bullet to penetrate fairly deeply into flesh, but perhaps not penetrate bone or dense muscle.

The only bullet I can recall being a problem in very light foliage and grass is the .204's 24gn bullet launched at 4400fps, but I suspect the issue is more about the velocity than the construction of the bullet.

[JohnV]

Yeah small caliber high velocity stuff is more prone to blow ups . I have seen some thin jacketed bullets from a 220 Swift blow up in the air fired from a cut rifled barrel . At first we could not work out what was happening then we saw some mist from the core I guess .
I have had Berger 55 grain HP BT bullets blow up from a 223 on fairly thin grass . Some of the batch had popped jackets ( jacket splits and folds over itself in the point forming die ) at the ogive making them far more susceptible I never noticed them before I moly coated them and then could not see it anyway . I sectioned some of the bullets until I found one . Had six boxes from Burger and they would not replace them .
It was that experience a long time ago that set me on the road to moulding and swaging my own . That was the last time I ever bought any Berger bullets . Normally they make good stuff but it's how they fix their F*ck ups that defines a good company in my eyes . Those ball bearings in the bullet meplat don't help . They actually slow the hydraulic action getting into any cavity and expanding it . It's a very old idea that failed . The original concept was not about quicker expansion it was about making the bullet easier to eject from the point form die when you have a poor match between the core seater and the point former . Which commercial manufacturers make as small as possible like .001 or .002 between the two dies so the core seater only has to wear and expand .001 in many cases to get bad ejection . The jacket is already at the final caliber or very close then add to that lube and then it jams in the point form die . Some swagers think the point form die is bad but it's usually the core seater is worn out and they replace the wrong die .
When using small ejection pins that can push right through into the core it gave something solid to push on when using bad ejecting dies . Then someone decided to make it a sales feature but it died . Same with a ballistic tip it slows expansion when compared to a big open meplat on the same bullet but not necessarily a bad thing .

[Oldbloke]

The Core BHN is close to 5 , the meplats outside is .055 it's too hard to measure the hole .
Cup thickness no idea never measured it . Think the CH jacket is fairly parallel inside and .021 thick near the base but the J4 Jacket is very parallel and about ,018 thick . It's for target bullets but once it is core bonded the jacket thickness is less relevant .Cup thickness is not a parameter I need to model a bullet .

Sorry should have said jacket, not cup thickness.

BHN =5 pure lead
Jacket= 0.021"
HP= abt 0.80"

The 125gr Im toying with after tiping are:
Weight=124gr
BHN =7.6
Jacket= 0.30"
HP= 0.050"

Have since loaded up some to test.
HP = 0.079"

Everything Ive seen & heard strongly suggests they will work fine.

[JohnV]

They look like they will work fine to me . My Corbin presses can't handle much over pure lead , 7 would work but be pushing it and placing more strain on the dies and press . If I had a larger Corbin CSP2 Mega Mite press with bigger dies I could use harder lead alloy . It's not worth the investment for me now as what I have works fine and makes really nice accurate bullets . If I could find a reliable supply of quality jackets I might buy bigger presses and supply the forum with some bullet but it's too expensive now buying in small lots . It's hard to make a decent profit selling at the same price as commercial bullet makers and people can't see much difference in the product especially when all kinds of wild claims are made about brands with dubious BC's quoted . Also people are impressed by boat tails and I would need extra dies to make rebated BT's . Never mind the fact that the World 1000 yard benchrest record was broken a few years back with BiB flat based bullets .
My 180 grain corbonded bullet will perform just as well as a Woodleigh , it's made the same way but with more care than mass production can supply . Heat Core-bonding does cause a slight loss in group accuracy . However I discovered a little trick to reduce that effect which I am not going to share because it makes my bullets better .
When I look back at old bullet specs I see I have made meplat's as large as .093 . From memory I think I closed them up a bit because the ejection pin was going down into the lead core and leaving a mark . Probably would do nothing negative but I did not like it .

[Oldbloke]

I did some measuring a few weeks ago and these are the results. I cant swear to the measurements being precise but they are very close. I'm playing with bullet 1. Bullet 2 is the bullet it will be replacing and worked well when I shot a fellow in April.
In any case just comparing them gives the strong impression they are in the " ball park" and should work OK.

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[JohnV]

It's very hard to compare bullets unless you have very expensive equipment . Just a different ogive shape can throw out the BC and affects the trajectory compared to the other . I tend to model anything new in JBM Point Mass program . However it took quite a bit of research to understand all the many inputs and that was years ago and I might have forgotten some of it but I ahve it written down someplace . Like who the hell knows what an RT/R ratio is ? If the ogive is slightly secant, the number has to be less than 1. If it calculates to 1, it is tangent, but if it calculates to .5 it is completely secant. In other words, .98 is slightly secant. So I just enter 1 for a Tangent ogive . I have tried going each side of 1 and it makes SFA difference to the calculated BC's once the list is averaged .
I don't think you can really compare an Interlock or Partition bullet with a cup and core flat base or with a boatail bullet . Drag functions would be different and terminal ballistics quite different . From what I can see your bullet should be close to the SPEER .308 CAL 130GR VARMINT HP in ballistic performance . This is where you can model your bullet and work out it's BC but it's hard to use .https://jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmmpm-5.1.cgi Make sure you select Point Mass trajectory and include Coefficients at the bottom . Many of the inputs are in calibers not actual measurements so everything in those boxes needs to be the measurement divided by the caliber Ex. meplat diameter .055 -:- by .308 = .1786 . However the smallest that you can enter is .250 which is strange so for bullets like ours just enter .250 . I talked to James Brad Millard about that and never got a straight answer . Get back to me because your going to go nuts .