Reloading. Waayy too technical. :lol:

[in2anity]

in2anity,
That is excellent elevation.

Would love to claim it as my own WM, alas tis not! I’m doing well if they all stay in the 5 ring haha. Nope, it’s from a A grade clubmate I shoot alongside regularly. He’s performing exceptionally well at the moment. And I know his reloading procedures are relatively simple. Precise, and high quality consumables… but simple nonetheless.

[Wm.Traynor]

in2anity,
That is excellent elevation.

Would love to claim it as my own WM, alas tis not! I’m doing well if they all stay in the 5 ring haha. Nope, it’s from a A grade clubmate I shoot alongside regularly. He’s performing exceptionally well at the moment. And I know his reloading procedures are relatively simple. Precise, and high quality consumables… but simple nonetheless.

Never mind mate, as an old clubmate once said, "Keep one eye on the foresight, the other eye on the flags and the other eye on the mirage". You'll get there

[Tank]

Still use my Lyman 310 tool for .303 and 45-70.
TBH I’ve never noted any loss of accuracy with this method.
Still use RCBS digital powder measure…..which is probably the most important part…..
Old and new in unison!
Imagine that!!

303 and 45-70 are not really good accurate cartridges in the context of what I am saying , to evaluate more precision ideas .
You never noticed any loss of accuracy compared to what ? Actually once you develop really precision ammo and iron out all the bugs you find out that the powder load in grains is one of the less important factors . A tenth of a grain here or there makes little group size difference . There is nothing wrong with a Lyman 310 tool I have two sets myself and a skilled re-loader can make good ammo but they have limitations .

If you’re looking for quantified results….
I’ll see if I can find photos posted on here of sub moa group shot with my 310 tool loaded 45-70. You know…..within “limitations”.
More to follow.

[Tank]

download/file.php?id=14792
Here it is…..6 shot group at 100m.
490gr Lyman .459 home cast over 31gr 2207 out of my 16” barrelled H&R Model 155 single shot I paid a carton for…

Pays not to generalise.

I’ll be more concise in the future for you.

Similar results with my Martini Enfield VTC Carbine (look it up) using home cast loads and my 310 tool.

.45-70 not accurate at all…..clearly.

‘Limitations?’ I think not.

[Tank]

Picture of the culprit rifle for s**ts and giggles.

[JohnV]

FLS is the reason you get early and variable neck hardening and have to toss some brass . If that works for you then fine but there is better ways and they have been around a long time but not pushed by anyone because FLS sells more empty cases . A combination of the body die . Lee collet neck die and an occasional neck annealing will keep neck tensions more even across the batch .

Nope I anneal some of my rifle after every firing nothing to do with neck hardening.

For my hunting 308 which is using RP brass, I anneal every 2nd firing, I just culled the poor stuff straight off the bat. Brass is cheap.

3 shot groups with my 4lb Howa Super lite run easy 0.6moa for 130gr Speer HP with 49gr of 2208. I don't need that accuracy but it sure is nice to know I've got it

Mate your off track , annealing is about case hardening and mostly the neck and just past the shoulder region is where you should anneal and that most assuredly affects neck tension .

[JohnV]

Picture of the culprit rifle for s**ts and giggles.

When you have a tuned up gun like that then it's far more capable but the average one is not so tight shooting .. How many BR matches are won with a 45-70 ?

[Oldbloke]

It's also about range Robin . 1 MOA is plenty of a accuracy at short ranges with a light stalking type gun but at 900 meters it's not so good on smaller varmint targets.

What percentage of "hunters" do you think are shooting "smaller varmint" at 900m but? In fact what percentage of "hunters" are taking game shots beyond say 300m? Yes there's a subset, but this is novelty. What I'm saying is that I generally agree for your average hunter, reloading has indeed become way too technical. Just FLS the damned things, give em a wipe, load em up and go hunt

Glad you said "shooting". It sure isn't hunting.

[JohnV]

It's true that average hunting ranges are well under 300 meters but there is a growing number of longer range hunters /shooters whatever , granted a small number . I think one of the misconceptions is that people are walking about with their light stalking rifles
then taking pot shots at long ranges . It's not really like that in general. Most longer range shooters have heavy dedicated tuned up rifles and precision loaded ammo and use bi-pods , rests , rear bags , tripods etc etc. Most of the time it's prone shooting over baits , waterholes , feed bins or crops at a known distance . Once you have a gun that will produce consistent half inch groups , taking a steady prone shot at 500 meters is not such a stretch .

[on_one_wheel]

"taking a steady prone shot at 500 meters is not such a stretch"

But putting that first shot from a cold barrel with varying wind speeds / direction at a different ambient temp, different humidity than the last time you had a shoot, into the brain or vitals of a medium game animal that may or may not stay still for the .7 second flight time is definitely asking a bit.

[JohnV]

As I said previously I load and tune and build for a good on target cold barrel shot . If I can't get a gun to do that I sell it or replace the barrel . My current guns all have good cold barrel accuracy . If the game moves on you then that's bad luck but how much can they move in .7 seconds

[on_one_wheel]

At 500 meters its not hunting, it's taking pot shots, there's just too many variables to hold your head up high and call it ethical hunting.
Even with a cartridge that bucks the wind well like a .243, If your allowance for wind alone is out by as little as 1 meter per second it'll throw your shot 6 inches out, throw a little mirage into the equation just for fun, consider your retained energy had already halved at 500m so kiss goodbye to decent expansion or fragmentation... yeah .... nup

[JohnV]

At 500 meters its not hunting, it's taking pot shots, there's just too many variables to hold your head up high and call it ethical hunting.
Even with a cartridge that bucks the wind well like a .243, If your allowance for wind alone is out by as little as 1 meter per second it'll throw your shot 6 inches out, throw a little mirage into the equation just for fun, consider your retained energy had already halved at 500m so kiss goodbye to decent expansion or fragmentation... yeah .... nup

On game like foxes , dogs and goats you don't need a lot of bullet expansion using an 80 to 87 grain 243 bullet . It will take them out even if the bullet does not expand much . however I make my own 80 grain bullets with a larger meplat that aids expansion at lower velocities . 500 meters is not extreme range and the 80 grain bullet is still doing about 1800 fps , that has been enough to get some expansion on my bullet . Wind is a big issue and if the wind is brisk I give up and go stalking . Ethical hunting or not is an entirely different discussion .

[Wyliecoyote]

At 500 meters its not hunting, it's taking pot shots, there's just too many variables to hold your head up high and call it ethical hunting.
Even with a cartridge that bucks the wind well like a .243, If your allowance for wind alone is out by as little as 1 meter per second it'll throw your shot 6 inches out, throw a little mirage into the equation just for fun, consider your retained energy had already halved at 500m so kiss goodbye to decent expansion or fragmentation... yeah .... nup

Now this is where the minute of pig is good enough theory comes to its crossroads.Say you have a MOA rifle of any given caliber cartridge combination and you center the crosshair, after doing your dope, on the billie goat or boar blissfully munching away at 500 metres. But you make an error in wind of one MOA and fire the shot. The bullet drifts 5.5 inches beyond your dope plus possibly half the MOA the rifle holds, so a added possible drift of 8.25 inches if the shot fired was of the outer extremity of the rifles group potential and in the downwind side. Conversely if it was the shot extremity on the upwind side it hits 2.75 inches or half MOA downwind of the crosshair but good enough that you hit the lung heart area as opposed to the gut shot. This is where and why load development with all the good procedures is necessary to minimise human error by compensating with rifle precision. A half MOA grouping rifle in this same scenario still hits in the vitals.

[JohnV]

At 500 meters its not hunting, it's taking pot shots, there's just too many variables to hold your head up high and call it ethical hunting.
Even with a cartridge that bucks the wind well like a .243, If your allowance for wind alone is out by as little as 1 meter per second it'll throw your shot 6 inches out, throw a little mirage into the equation just for fun, consider your retained energy had already halved at 500m so kiss goodbye to decent expansion or fragmentation... yeah .... nup

Now this is where the minute of pig is good enough theory comes to its crossroads.Say you have a MOA rifle of any given caliber cartridge combination and you center the crosshair, after doing your dope, on the billie goat or boar blissfully munching away at 500 metres. But you make an error in wind of one MOA and fire the shot. The bullet drifts 5.5 inches beyond your dope plus possibly half the MOA the rifle holds, so a added possible drift of 8.25 inches if the shot fired was of the outer extremity of the rifles group potential and in the downwind side. Conversely if it was the shot extremity on the upwind side it hits 2.75 inches or half MOA downwind of the crosshair but good enough that you hit the lung heart area as opposed to the gut shot. This is where and why load development with all the good procedures is necessary to minimise human error by compensating with rifle precision. A half MOA grouping rifle in this same scenario still hits in the vitals.

I agree and that's why I stop longer range shots when the wind comes up , it's too hard to judge what the wind is doing out younder , This is an average group from my alloy chassis varmint gun so I usually hit what I was aiming at upto 500 in no wind situations . I watched the grass and shrubs etc. at the bait station or around the target to get an idea what the wind was doing .