Recipe Needed - .303 with Hitek Cast Pills

[Jackaroo]

Loading some .303 cases using 165gr Hitek cast pills.

Have AR2206h & AR2207.

Can't find any ADI listing for .303 & AR2207, but Google finds a lot for H4198 (been looking at a lot of 30-40 Krag data as well).

I also have AP70, Unique, Trail Boss, Green Dot & Red Dot but rather save those.

Any suggestions for light loads using the 165gr Hitek cast pills (won't be gas checked)?

[Oldbloke]

AP70, Unique, Trail Boss, Green Dot & Red Dot will all work.

Download the 48th Ed of Lynn's reloading manual here.

Lyman Reloading Handbook 48th Ed. If you want a complete copy you can download it from here:

https://marvinstuart.com/firearm/Manual ... 20Manuals/

Be warned the pdf file is a 310 mb download. There are more manuals available.

Just look for the "equivalent " powders

[AS30N]

I am not telling you that do it but this is what I would do.

2207 is way too fast for plain cast boolits. It must be gas checked, assuming the cast boolit has gas check type base, all you need is a cheap sizing die and some 30 cal has checks. Personally I would go 180-200 gr as they will travel slower in the barrel

As for powder, 2207 and Reloader 7 are similar. I current use 29gr of RX7 with 180 GC cast for my 308 (within the Lyman manual recommendation). As 308 and 303 have similar case capacity. I would try around 31 gr of 2207 for 165 gr proj.

[AS30N]

Lyman 48th doesn't have 165 gr but has 170 cast in 308 (303 has very similar case capacity so the starting load is generally useful. Listed 23 min to 41.5 max Reloader 7.

Personally I would be dealing with a few variables:
-2207 and RX7 are similar but not the same
-Projectiles are not the same
-303 and 308 are not the same

But I would be more than comfortable using 30-31 gr of Ar2207, it is in the middle (somewhat towards to low end) so lots of margin for error.
Again, that's what I would do, I am not telling you to do it.

[Jackaroo]

Thanks OB and AS30N appreciate the replies.

I'm just after a nice slow round I can shoot at metal for Wild Bunch.

Looking at 303 data (and 30-40 Krag data which they say is interchangeable) there's a lot of suitable loads using the pistol powders that I have, but I REALLY don't want to burn them up loading 303.

I wanted to stay away from putting gas check on, but that may not be possible. There's a lot of info (mind boggling) on the net and in manual and a lot using low rifle powder charges and fillers, not keen on using fillers.

[bladeracer]

Thanks OB and AS30N appreciate the replies.

I'm just after a nice slow round I can shoot at metal for Wild Bunch.

Looking at 303 data (and 30-40 Krag data which they say is interchangeable) there's a lot of suitable loads using the pistol powders that I have, but I REALLY don't want to burn them up loading 303.

I wanted to stay away from putting gas check on, but that may not be possible. There's a lot of info (mind boggling) on the net and in manual and a lot using low rifle powder charges and fillers, not keen on using fillers.

How low do you want to go? I would experiment with AR2206H and save the pistol powders for your pistol ammo.

[Jackaroo]

How low do you want to go? I would experiment with AR2206H and save the pistol powders for your pistol ammo.

A BAM Side Match (Bolt Action Military Rifle) in Wild Bunch at the clubs I shoot at is a max 100m at steel targets, so I don't need a hot round.

Not keen though on using dacron filler which on reading seems to needed for light charges of powder(?).

ADI don't have a listing for cast pills, the jacketed pill starting load is 34.0 grains @ 2262 fps for a slightly heavier pill than what I have.

[bladeracer]

How low do you want to go? I would experiment with AR2206H and save the pistol powders for your pistol ammo.

A BAM Side Match (Bolt Action Military Rifle) in Wild Bunch at the clubs I shoot at is a max 100m at steel targets, so I don't need a hot round.

Not keen though on using dacron filler which on reading seems to needed for light charges of powder(?).

ADI don't have a listing for cast pills, the jacketed pill starting load is 34.0 grains @ 2262 fps for a slightly heavier pill than what I have.

You shouldn't have to use a filler even down to subsonic levels, but the only way to know is to try it. 165gn is a heavy bullet so you won't need to go very low with AR2206H. Load some at about 25gn and see how they shoot, then work up or down to suit. What diameter are the bullets though? I prefer .314" for .303. If they keyhole you'll need fatter bullets.

[Jackaroo]

You shouldn't have to use a filler even down to subsonic levels, but the only way to know is to try it. 165gn is a heavy bullet so you won't need to go very low with AR2206H. Load some at about 25gn and see how they shoot, then work up or down to suit. What diameter are the bullets though? I prefer .314" for .303. If they keyhole you'll need fatter bullets.

The diameter is my next concern, its an early SHTLE but with a very good barrel (never slugged it) pills are sold as sized to .312" but they mic out for me at .313" with the Hitek coating.

I'm starting to think I might have to break into my stash of other powders and maybe use AS50N, even though I have a lot of powder, I don't think I will even now get out of the hoarding mentality. I can understand more now when I was younger the people who had gone through the depression wasted nothing and were loath to use up all of anything.

One thing that has me pondering, I've shot pistols competitively for over 40 years and there's always been talk (and photos) of exploded pistols from a small charge of powder that detonated instead of burned. How does small charges of fast powders in a large case like a .303 have not the same issue?

[Oldbloke]

"One thing that has me pondering, I've shot pistols competitively for over 40 years and there's always been talk (and photos) of exploded pistols from a small charge of powder that detonated instead of burned. How does small charges of fast powders in a large case like a .303 have not the same issue?"

More likely a double charge.

[Tank]

Kinda thought this is right in Trailboss wheelhouse (?)
Taking up all that volume and weighing so little is its reason for existing…..
You won’t use ‘heaps’ in a side match surely? (8 to 10gr?)
How’s it working out for you?
Kind Regs,
Tank.

[bladeracer]

The diameter is my next concern, its an early SHTLE but with a very good barrel (never slugged it) pills are sold as sized to .312" but they mic out for me at .313" with the Hitek coating.

I'm starting to think I might have to break into my stash of other powders and maybe use AS50N, even though I have a lot of powder, I don't think I will even now get out of the hoarding mentality. I can understand more now when I was younger the people who had gone through the depression wasted nothing and were loath to use up all of anything.

One thing that has me pondering, I've shot pistols competitively for over 40 years and there's always been talk (and photos) of exploded pistols from a small charge of powder that detonated instead of burned. How does small charges of fast powders in a large case like a .303 have not the same issue?

I would hang onto your pistol powders and use the rifle stuff, either AR2207 or AR2206H, but AR2206H is the better choice for reduced loads in my opinion.

SEE (Secondary Explosion Effect) is a potential problem with very small charges of very slow powders in very large cases. A 10gn charge of AR2217 or AR2225 in the .303 could potentially see it happen I guess, though you could shoot hundreds of them before the conditions were perfect and it actually occurred. AR2206H is not a slow powder and the .303 is not a large case. Subsonic with a 165gn bullet would likely be somewhere around 18gn I guess. I use Trailboss for my reduced .303 loads, but in 8x57mm 42gn of AR2206H behind the 180gn Nosler BT makes 2475fps, 18gn makes a subsonic load with 180gn cast, compared to 9.6gn of Trailboss for a cast subsonic 180gn. The charges are not that small. In pistols it's far more likely it was loaded on a progressive press and got double-charged with very fast pistol powder.

[bladeracer]

Yep, Trailboss is the ideal for greatly-reduced loads as it tops out on velocity at roughly half your velocity with normal powders.

In 8x57mm I tested TB behind a 182gn cast bullet from 8gn up to 19gn charges. From 14gn onward velocity didn't change by a significant amount. 8gn loads average around 970fps. My highest recorded of 125 test loads was with 19gn at 1430fps (the 19gn loads averaged 1370fps), but 14gn averages 1380fps (the same as 20gn of AR2206H). 19.75gn of TB fills the case to the top, compared to 58.5gn of AR2206H to the same level.

It can be worth experimenting with larger charges of TB though as it may improve group size, as we found with my brother's .243 - we didn't make more velocity but groups were better. The excess powder is basically acting as a filler.

TB is not so useful if you're just wanting to reduce noise and recoil a bit (say 80% or normal velocities), AR2206H is better in that situation.

Kinda thought this is right in Trailboss wheelhouse (?)
Taking up all that volume and weighing so little is its reason for existing…..
You won’t use ‘heaps’ in a side match surely? (8 to 10gr?)
How’s it working out for you?
Kind Regs,
Tank.

[Jackaroo]

Kinda thought this is right in Trailboss wheelhouse (?)
Taking up all that volume and weighing so little is its reason for existing…..
You won’t use ‘heaps’ in a side match surely? (8 to 10gr?)
How’s it working out for you?
Kind Regs,
Tank.

I've got about 3.5kg of TB left and its our go to powder for .44-40 for pistol and rifle in Single Action and we shoot a lot. I'm just loath to use it for something else if I don't have to.

[Jackaroo]

Yep, Trailboss is the ideal for greatly-reduced loads as it tops out on velocity at roughly half your velocity with normal powders.

In 8x57mm I tested TB behind a 182gn cast bullet from 8gn up to 19gn charges. From 14gn onward velocity didn't change by a significant amount. 8gn loads average around 970fps. My highest recorded of 125 test loads was with 19gn at 1430fps (the 19gn loads averaged 1370fps), but 14gn averages 1380fps (the same as 20gn of AR2206H). 19.75gn of TB fills the case to the top, compared to 58.5gn of AR2206H to the same level.

It can be worth experimenting with larger charges of TB though as it may improve group size, as we found with my brother's .243 - we didn't make more velocity but groups were better. The excess powder is basically acting as a filler.

TB is not so useful if you're just wanting to reduce noise and recoil a bit (say 80% or normal velocities), AR2206H is better in that situation.

I loaded up some 30-30 cases with the same weight pills (165gr Hitek) with 20gns of AR2206H and was pleased with that load.

[bladeracer]

Yes, that would be very pleasant shooting. The .303 is about 30% larger capacity than the .30-30 so the same charge will see less velocity. If you were happy with the .30-30 maybe try about 25gn of AR2206H in the .303.

Yep, Trailboss is the ideal for greatly-reduced loads as it tops out on velocity at roughly half your velocity with normal powders.

In 8x57mm I tested TB behind a 182gn cast bullet from 8gn up to 19gn charges. From 14gn onward velocity didn't change by a significant amount. 8gn loads average around 970fps. My highest recorded of 125 test loads was with 19gn at 1430fps (the 19gn loads averaged 1370fps), but 14gn averages 1380fps (the same as 20gn of AR2206H). 19.75gn of TB fills the case to the top, compared to 58.5gn of AR2206H to the same level.

It can be worth experimenting with larger charges of TB though as it may improve group size, as we found with my brother's .243 - we didn't make more velocity but groups were better. The excess powder is basically acting as a filler.

TB is not so useful if you're just wanting to reduce noise and recoil a bit (say 80% or normal velocities), AR2206H is better in that situation.

I loaded up some 30-30 cases with the same weight pills (165gr Hitek) with 20gns of AR2206H and was pleased with that load.

[Jackaroo]

Yes, that would be very pleasant shooting. The .303 is about 30% larger capacity than the .30-30 so the same charge will see less velocity. If you were happy with the .30-30 maybe try about 25gn of AR2206H in the .303.

Thanks,
Its a rabbit hole, but a fun rabbit hole to go down.

Stumbled on this page, interesting read if you haven't already read it.

[Tank]

It’s all good fun!
I understand completely.
I’m sitting on a bit over a kilo of AP70N for my .310 Cadet for the same reason.
(I don’t shoot handguns anymore).
Hope you have some joy with 2206H and 2207!
Horrible memories of vaporising some HRBC .264s thinking the copper coloured coating would let me load them to around 2,000fps. I was wrong.

[Jackaroo]

Yes, that would be very pleasant shooting. The .303 is about 30% larger capacity than the .30-30 so the same charge will see less velocity. If you were happy with the .30-30 maybe try about 25gn of AR2206H in the .303.

Thanks,
Its a rabbit hole, but a fun rabbit hole to go down.

Stumbled on this page, interesting read if you haven't already read it.

Good if I'd put the link in -

https://www.303british.com/id37.html

[Jackaroo]

It’s all good fun!
I understand completely.
I’m sitting on a bit over a kilo of AP70N for my .310 Cadet for the same reason.
(I don’t shoot handguns anymore).
Hope you have some joy with 2206H and 2207!
Horrible memories of vaporising some HRBC .264s thinking the copper coloured coating would let me load them to around 2,000fps. I was wrong.

I've got around 700gm of AP70 for my Cadet left.

[Tank]

That’s quite a bit of shooting thankfully Jackaroo!
128gr HRBC’s over 4.8gr is my rifle’s happy place

[bladeracer]

It’s all good fun!
I understand completely.
I’m sitting on a bit over a kilo of AP70N for my .310 Cadet for the same reason.
(I don’t shoot handguns anymore).
Hope you have some joy with 2206H and 2207!
Horrible memories of vaporising some HRBC .264s thinking the copper coloured coating would let me load them to around 2,000fps. I was wrong.

I fired a soft lead Aloxed 180gn bullet in the 8x57mm at 2550fps, it went straight through 8mm mild steel at 50m.

[Tank]

35gr of 2209 in my M96 under 140gr HRBC…..nothing arriving at target at 50m. 5 shots. Big clean up.

[bladeracer]

35gr of 2209 in my M96 under 140gr HRBC…..nothing arriving at target at 50m. 5 shots. Big clean up.

Being a commercial bullet rather than one cast to fit your barrel my guess is it was under-size and the gas blew around it.

Yes, cleaning the lead out of the bore was a real chore.