OFV large rile primers

[zbenga]

Anyone tried these?
I have loaded about 50 rounds to do some load development for the 45-70 with 350gr projectile but have not made it to the range yet, probably will do so by end of Feb by the looks of it

if someone tries them before then how did they go?

[Oldbloke]

Made in India. That's all I know.

For the average Hunter probably fine.

https://www.rebelgunworks.com.au/produc ... 0127&_ss=r

[zbenga]

from what I understood they were meant for US army but they cancelled the contract and someone in AU jump on them really quick, got two big boxes of it from OpenRage and will do some testing probably by end of Feb

been using CCI large magnum pistol for my 45-70 and works great

[zbenga]

so went to the range and did some load development with these primers for a 45-70 and had zero issues with them

using ADI 2207 started with 40G and went to 46, best load was 42.5, AVG 1637.3 with an SD of 5.6 and Spread of 14.8 with a 350Grain Hornady FN Interlock (no reed tip), never got around to group it as I started to feel a bit down, came down with the flu, I was load developing with 4 shots to save on time

so I think I found what she likes, next time I'll go .2 grains up and .2 gains down and do a 5 shot, will see what happens but so far I have no issue with these primers, they seem to be ok, don't feel bad getting two bricks of these primers now

[in2anity]

Those are pretty good numbers for the 45-70

[zbenga]

so this weekend went and did more load development, AR2207 56.5 grains, 350 grain Spear .458 FN (not made for the 45-70 but works ok if you use the lee crimper, I think was made for the Winchester magnum), rifle was Ruger made Marlin trapper

found this node, .5 grain above and below moved the SD by up either side by about 3-4 points


Rifle Cartridge, 350.0 gr
# Speed (FPS) Δ AVG (FPS) KE (FT-LB) Power Factor (kgr⋅ft/s) Time Clean Bore Cold Bore Shot Notes
1 1949.0 2.1 2951.5 682.1 2:19:27 PM
2 1944.5 -2.4 2938.0 680.6 2:19:44 PM
3 1947.2 0.3 2946.0 681.5 2:20:02 PM

AVERAGE SPEED 1946.9
STD DEV 1.8
SPREAD 4.5
AVERAGE POWER FACTOR 681.4
PROJECTILE WEIGHT(GRAINS 350.0
SESSION NOTE 0.0
DATE 9 March 2024 at 2:18 PM
All shots included in the calculations

This round does kick a little but at 1950 FPS I believe it will make the Speer hotcore open up

Rifle Cartridge, 350.0 gr
# Speed (FPS) Δ AVG (FPS) KE (FT-LB) Power Factor (kgr⋅ft/s) Time Clean Bore Cold Bore Shot Notes
1 1978.0 -3.7 3040.2 692.3 2:32:04 PM
2 1991.1 9.3 3080.5 696.9 2:32:54 PM
3 1976.2 -5.6 3034.5 691.7 2:33:45 PM

AVERAGE SPEED 1981.8
STD DEV 6.6
SPREAD 14.9
AVERAGE POWER FACTOR 693.6
PROJECTILE WEIGHT(GRAINS 350.0
SESSION NOTE 0.0
DATE 9 March 2024 at 2:31 PM
All shots included in the calculations

this was with 56 grains of powder, anything more and SD jumps to 25-30 and kicks too much


next was a load development for the 300 Grain Sierra which is a FN HP, best node was 56.5 grains of powder

Rifle Cartridge, 300.0 gr
# Speed (FPS) Δ AVG (FPS) KE (FT-LB) Power Factor (kgr⋅ft/s) Time Clean Bore Cold Bore Shot Notes
1 2232.4 6.0 3319.3 669.7 2:57:15 PM
2 2227.1 0.7 3303.5 668.1 2:57:34 PM
3 2219.8 -6.7 3281.7 665.9 2:57:53 PM

AVERAGE SPEED 2226.4
STD DEV 5.2
SPREAD 12.7
AVERAGE POWER FACTOR 667.9
PROJECTILE WEIGHT(GRAINS 300.0
SESSION NOTE 0.0
DATE 9 March 2024 at 2:56 PM
All shots included in the calculations


I don't know how effective this is as it's pushing the 300 grain very fast and kicks quite a bit but I doubt a pig will be left standing with this load

both were sub MOA at 100m so these primers are not bat at all, never had a misfire or install issue

I'm actually thinking of buying another brick of these primers


next step is to work out a mild load around the 1400fps but might have to wait a week or two for my shoulder to recover ... after like 110 shots it's not looking too good

[bladeracer]

If half a grain affects the result significantly then I would not consider it to be a node at all. A node is a region where small variations in your load have no significant affect on the result at the target, particularly any elevation difference as that will increase with distance. I wouldn't use velocity as a determining factor, what matters is whether the load is accurate at the target.

found this node, .5 grain above and below moved the SD by up either side by about 3-4 points

[zbenga]

here is the bracket for this one, the increment was .5 grain


Rifle Cartridge, 350.0 gr
# Speed (FPS) Δ AVG (FPS) KE (FT-LB) Power Factor (kgr⋅ft/s) Time Clean Bore Cold Bore Shot Notes
1 1983.1 -9.6 3055.8 694.1 2:37:48 PM
2 2008.9 16.2 3135.8 703.1 2:38:11 PM
3 1986.2 -6.6 3065.2 695.2 2:38:33 PM

AVERAGE SPEED 1992.7
STD DEV 11.5
SPREAD 25.8
AVERAGE POWER FACTOR 697.4
PROJECTILE WEIGHT(GRAINS 350.0
SESSION NOTE 0.0
DATE 9 March 2024 at 2:37 PM
All shots included in the calculations

# Speed (FPS) Δ AVG (FPS) KE (FT-LB) Power Factor (kgr⋅ft/s) Time Clean Bore Cold Bore Shot Notes
1 1976.3 13.9 3034.8 691.7 2:36:07 PM
2 1950.0 -12.4 2954.6 682.5 2:36:20 PM
3 1960.9 -1.5 2987.8 686.3 2:36:43 PM

AVERAGE SPEED 1962.4
STD DEV 10.8
SPREAD 26.3
AVERAGE POWER FACTOR 686.8
PROJECTILE WEIGHT(GRAINS 350.0
SESSION NOTE 0.0
DATE 9 March 2024 at 2:35 PM
All shots included in the calculations

Rifle Cartridge, 350.0 gr
# Speed (FPS) Δ AVG (FPS) KE (FT-LB) Power Factor (kgr⋅ft/s) Time Clean Bore Cold Bore Shot Notes
1 1960.1 4.7 2985.4 686.0 2:34:38 PM
2 1942.2 -13.2 2931.0 679.8 2:34:59 PM
3 1964.0 8.5 2997.1 687.4 2:35:32 PM

AVERAGE SPEED 1955.4
STD DEV 9.5
SPREAD 21.8
AVERAGE POWER FACTOR 684.4
PROJECTILE WEIGHT(GRAINS 350.0
SESSION NOTE 0.0
DATE 9 March 2024 at 2:34 PM
All shots included in the calculations

Rifle Cartridge, 350.0 gr
# Speed (FPS) Δ AVG (FPS) KE (FT-LB) Power Factor (kgr⋅ft/s) Time Clean Bore Cold Bore Shot Notes
1 1978.0 -3.7 3040.2 692.3 2:32:04 PM
2 1991.1 9.3 3080.5 696.9 2:32:54 PM
3 1976.2 -5.6 3034.5 691.7 2:33:45 PM

AVERAGE SPEED 1981.8
STD DEV 6.6
SPREAD 14.9
AVERAGE POWER FACTOR 693.6
PROJECTILE WEIGHT(GRAINS 350.0
SESSION NOTE 0.0
DATE 9 March 2024 at 2:31 PM
All shots included in the calculations

Rifle Cartridge, 350.0 gr
# Speed (FPS) Δ AVG (FPS) KE (FT-LB) Power Factor (kgr⋅ft/s) Time Clean Bore Cold Bore Shot Notes
1 1957.5 -12.0 2977.3 685.1 2:30:26 PM
2 1977.7 8.3 3039.2 692.2 2:30:47 PM
3 1973.1 3.7 3025.0 690.6 2:31:11 PM

AVERAGE SPEED 1969.4
STD DEV 8.7
SPREAD 20.2
AVERAGE POWER FACTOR 689.3
PROJECTILE WEIGHT(GRAINS 350.0
SESSION NOTE 0.0
DATE 9 March 2024 at 2:29 PM
All shots included in the calculations

Rifle Cartridge, 350.0 gr
# Speed (FPS) Δ AVG (FPS) KE (FT-LB) Power Factor (kgr⋅ft/s) Time Clean Bore Cold Bore Shot Notes
1 1933.2 6.2 2903.9 676.6 2:28:41 PM
2 1925.7 -1.3 2881.6 674.0 2:28:59 PM
3 1922.1 -4.9 2870.7 672.7 2:29:23 PM

AVERAGE SPEED 1927.0
STD DEV 4.6
SPREAD 11.1
AVERAGE POWER FACTOR 674.5
PROJECTILE WEIGHT(GRAINS 350.0
SESSION NOTE 0.0
DATE 9 March 2024 at 2:28 PM
All shots included in the calculations

Rifle Cartridge, 350.0 gr
# Speed (FPS) Δ AVG (FPS) KE (FT-LB) Power Factor (kgr⋅ft/s) Time Clean Bore Cold Bore Shot Notes
1 1965.4 13.4 3001.5 687.9 2:26:31 PM
2 1959.3 7.3 2982.9 685.8 2:27:09 PM
3 1931.4 -20.6 2898.6 676.0 2:27:32 PM

AVERAGE SPEED 1952.0
STD DEV 14.8
SPREAD 34.0
AVERAGE POWER FACTOR 683.2
PROJECTILE WEIGHT(GRAINS 350.0
SESSION NOTE 0.0
DATE 9 March 2024 at 2:24 PM
All shots included in the calculations

Rifle Cartridge, 350.0 gr
# Speed (FPS) Δ AVG (FPS) KE (FT-LB) Power Factor (kgr⋅ft/s) Time Clean Bore Cold Bore Shot Notes
1 1935.1 -4.7 2909.7 677.3 2:23:14 PM
2 1946.1 6.3 2942.9 681.1 2:23:34 PM
3 1938.1 -1.7 2918.7 678.3 2:23:54 PM

AVERAGE SPEED 1939.8
STD DEV 4.7
SPREAD 11.0
AVERAGE POWER FACTOR 678.9
PROJECTILE WEIGHT(GRAINS 350.0
SESSION NOTE 0.0
DATE 9 March 2024 at 2:21 PM
All shots included in the calculations

Rifle Cartridge, 350.0 gr
# Speed (FPS) Δ AVG (FPS) KE (FT-LB) Power Factor (kgr⋅ft/s) Time Clean Bore Cold Bore Shot Notes
1 1949.0 2.1 2951.5 682.1 2:19:27 PM
2 1944.5 -2.4 2938.0 680.6 2:19:44 PM
3 1947.2 0.3 2946.0 681.5 2:20:02 PM

AVERAGE SPEED 1946.9
STD DEV 1.8
SPREAD 4.5
AVERAGE POWER FACTOR 681.4
PROJECTILE WEIGHT(GRAINS 350.0
SESSION NOTE 0.0
DATE 9 March 2024 at 2:18 PM
All shots included in the calculations

Rifle Cartridge, 350.0 gr
# Speed (FPS) Δ AVG (FPS) KE (FT-LB) Power Factor (kgr⋅ft/s) Time Clean Bore Cold Bore Shot Notes
1 1938.6 30.7 2920.2 678.5 2:17:22 PM
2 1896.1 -11.8 2793.6 663.6 2:17:52 PM
3 1889.1 -18.9 2772.9 661.2 2:18:18 PM

AVERAGE SPEED 1907.9
STD DEV 21.9
SPREAD 49.5
AVERAGE POWER FACTOR 667.8
PROJECTILE WEIGHT(GRAINS 350.0
SESSION NOTE 0.0
DATE 9 March 2024 at 2:01 PM

Rifle Cartridge, 350.0 gr
# Speed (FPS) Δ AVG (FPS) KE (FT-LB) Power Factor (kgr⋅ft/s) Time Clean Bore Cold Bore Shot Notes
1 1769.5 15.1 2432.9 619.3 1:58:17 PM
2 1794.0 39.6 2500.7 627.9 1:58:45 PM
3 1742.3 -12.1 2358.7 609.8 2:00:17 PM
4 1711.8 -42.6 2276.8 599.1 2:00:59 PM

AVERAGE SPEED 1754.4
STD DEV 30.6
SPREAD 82.2
AVERAGE POWER FACTOR 614.0
PROJECTILE WEIGHT(GRAINS 350.0
SESSION NOTE 0.0
DATE 9 March 2024 at 1:57 PM
All shots included in the calculations

Rifle Cartridge, 350.0 gr
# Speed (FPS) Δ AVG (FPS) KE (FT-LB) Power Factor (kgr⋅ft/s) Time Clean Bore Cold Bore Shot Notes
1 1742.4 27.0 2358.9 609.8 1:55:38 PM
2 1704.3 -11.0 2257.1 596.5 1:56:15 PM
3 1698.0 -17.3 2240.4 594.3 1:56:50 PM
4 1716.6 1.2 2289.5 600.8 1:57:16 PM

AVERAGE SPEED 1715.3
STD DEV 17.0
SPREAD 44.3
AVERAGE POWER FACTOR 600.4
PROJECTILE WEIGHT(GRAINS 350.0
SESSION NOTE 0.0
DATE 9 March 2024 at 1:55 PM


I settled on the one with 6.6 SD

[No1_49er]

A lot of interesting data in there, but there's no indication of what powder weight achieved those figures
Yes, you did note the 0.5 grain increments, but from what to what?
Having gathered all of that data, why did you choose the one with a 6.6 SD? Surely the better result would be an SD of 1.8 and a spread of 4.5.
Or is there something else, such as group size, which you have not reported?

[zbenga]

sorry the notes did not come out properly in the export
the SD of 6.6 had 48.7 grains of AR2207
the SD of 8.7 had 49.2 grains of AR2207
the SD of 9.5 had 49.7 grains of AR2207

what I have done now is created a few loads with .2 grains increments around the the SD of 8.7 and 6.6 to further look into it, will probably make it to the range in the next couple of weeks and I'll pick the best one from that range

the 1.8 has a an SD of 21 below and 4.7 above, the spread is too much I think and probably will act silly

what I have found out is interesting, you will generally find a "node" with a super low SD but it's really peaky, half a grain above or below is in double digits around it, then if you go either up or down by a few grains you will find a wider "node" which is not as good but more forgiving with very low SD if you go up and down by .2 or even .5 grains, it will then rinse and repeat so you can work out a stout or mild load if you keep going up and down the scale until you find what you're happy with

your shoulder will pay the price as 2000fps from a 16" barrel punches quite a bit

[mchughcb]

Is anyone selling these in Victoria?

[No1_49er]

I'm puzzled.
Are you saying that you are going to disregard a SD of 1.7 (ES 4.5) because the data from either side of that load showed a difference larger than you would rather see? If it were me, I'd revisit that load to confirm (or otherwise) the data. You're going to disregard the potential for gold, in favour of pot-metal that surrounds it?
Irrespective of your data, none of it has any meaning unless it is backed up by group sizes. From the 12 sets of data, where are the groups that go with them? Did you even put the shots on paper, or just over a chrony?
Surely, load developement is about finding what performs best in your rifle, by which I do not mean velocity, which counts for zip, if he group size matches a barn door.

[straightshooter]

For such small sample sizes SD is meaningless.
There have been some reports of these primers failing to ignite.

[in2anity]

They didn’t go bang in my Neilson or my club mates Barnard, with our own handloads.They are a very hard primer, so you’d better have a strong firing pin spring.

[zbenga]

I'm puzzled.
Are you saying that you are going to disregard a SD of 1.7 (ES 4.5) because the data from either side of that load showed a difference larger than you would rather see? If it were me, I'd revisit that load to confirm (or otherwise) the data. You're going to disregard the potential for gold, in favour of pot-metal that surrounds it?
Irrespective of your data, none of it has any meaning unless it is backed up by group sizes. From the 12 sets of data, where are the groups that go with them? Did you even put the shots on paper, or just over a chrony?
Surely, load developement is about finding what performs best in your rifle, by which I do not mean velocity, which counts for zip, if he group size matches a barn door.

yeah generally speaking from what I have seen you will alway get a crazy good SD with a specific load but even .2 grains difference either side takes you close to double digits, this would be good if you would do open F class and you can adjust the load but my thinking is if I'm shooting at night at 2-5 degrees and during the day at 40 (or more as the cartridge will hit 50) degrees then I wanted something that has a bigger window, trust me if I would compete I'll take whatever I can get!

anything in singe digits SD did .7 MOA at 100 and covers at 50, it is a big hole with the 45-70, I use a 1-6 so even at 6x at 100M with a lever gun with a short 16" barrel you will struggle to get .6 moa

anything over say 12SD is still sub MOA, the higher than 20 were meh, and some were in the 30's and 40's were all over the shop


are these primers better than CCI probably not, I use Large Pistol Magnum Primers (CCI 350) and these Indian primers give you about 5fps more
so far no issues but yes they are a bit harder, when you decap in my case the CCI breaks in half like the anvil separates from the cup, with these ones it comes out in a single piece. I see no difference compared to the CCI on the feel when you hand prime.



I think the sample size of 4 shots is ok, the groups match what SD so from my end this allows me to have sub MOA lever gun and shoot it cheaply and I don't have to think about blowing through primers

[in2anity]

This is hella technical load development for a lever action. Considering the design limitations, i think it's possible that SD has nothing to do with your outcomes. Rather other factors like barrel temperature and even the way you hold would be having a bigger influence on group than any SD metric. Particularly at limited ranges. TLDR: sample size way too small to draw meaningful conclusions.

[zbenga]

I kinda use the same process across any rifles

what is interesting for an old cartridge is that the only thing that seems to matter and reflect on the target is the powder load, bullet depth is limited by the OAL and if you jump it seems to not matter

for 100m it's a bloody laser, 200m is two clicks but for most stuff no need to click or hold, just put the x on it and it's DRT

[in2anity]

I kinda use the same process across any rifles

what is interesting for an old cartridge is that the only thing that seems to matter and reflect on the target is the powder load, bullet depth is limited by the OAL and if you jump it seems to not matter

for 100m it's a bloody laser, 200m is two clicks but for most stuff no need to click or hold, just put the x on it and it's DRT

The way i once developed for levers was always over longer strings of shots, coming from a metallic silhoutte shooting perspective. So like 10 shot groups at least. In that situation, the out of the box lever can be rather problematic, due to the bedding arrangement (i.e. tight forend, tight barrel bands, barrel heat etc). At that time my attention turned to the rifle itself and the way it was shot, rather than going crazy technical on my handloads. Sure my loads were monitored, and experimented, but measuring SD is more a extreme precision metric, usually for purpose built target rifles at longer ranges.

[zbenga]

did some more testing with these primers and got a load worked out, in order to get good accuracy I had to push it to 1950 fps (350 grain pills)
this is a the best and last group, 5th shot (last one) I now I pulled because my shoulder was actually hurting, haven't measured but it's probably around 1moa at 100m
shooting lever guns off the bench at around 2000fps is brutal

group is a big high was aiming for bottom right target, I think that's the difference between 1800fps and 1950 fps

so far I'm happy with these primers and have 3 good loads with them which shoot with same accuracy and consistency
300grain Sierra HP FN
350 Speer hotcor
350 Hornady FN