Sierra 69gr Matchking Berger 77gr OTM 223

[FTL]

Normally have loaded 69gr with BM2, but thought I would try Ar2208/Varget. Have checked multiple sources and working up a load starting at 24gr Ar 2208 to 25.8 (all above 24.8 are compressed loads) thought that before pulling the trigger I would check here to take advice as there is a lot of expertise on the forum.

I also managed to snag some 77gr OTM Tactical Bergers(length1.029") in 223 and want to use AR 2208 for those. 1:8 twist so will stabilise
I haven't actually loaded as yet but the window(Berger manual) for Ar2208 is from 20gr to 22.5gr. Obviously I will be starting at the Minimum and working up. The max load is not compressed (quick mock up).

Has anybody loaded these(77gr)?

These are both LR target projects.

I appreciate your expert opinions

[SCJ429]

Wow, Bergers! I hope you bought a couple of thousand.

[Jorlcrin]

Normally have loaded 69gr with BM2, but thought I would try Ar2208/Varget. Have checked multiple sources and working up a load starting at 24gr Ar 2208 to 25.8 (all above 24.8 are compressed loads) thought that before pulling the trigger I would check here to take advice as there is a lot of expertise on the forum.

I also managed to snag some 77gr OTM Tactical Bergers(length1.029") in 223 and want to use AR 2208 for those. 1:8 twist so will stabilise
I haven't actually loaded as yet but the window(Berger manual) for Ar2208 is from 20gr to 22.5gr. Obviously I will be starting at the Minimum and working up. The max load is not compressed (quick mock up).

Has anybody loaded these(77gr)?

These are both LR target projects.

I appreciate your expert opinions

[Not loading for target work, so I havent dialled these in very much.]

I load the 68gn Hornady BTHP match and the 69gn Rexem F-Bomb pills with 24.5gns of AR2208, and a COAL of 2.265".

I also load the 75gn Hornady BTHP Match, and the 75gn Rexem BTHP F-Bombs with 24.0gns of AR2208, and COAL of 2.265"

I havent had the chance to chrono any of them other than the Rexem 75gn pills; they seem to be departing at 2740fps average.
No excess pressure signs seen so far; ADI brass.

The 68/69gn(Both have G1 BC of 0.355) pills are running through a Howa 1500 .223 with 1:9 twist, and a 22" barrel.
The 75gn pills(Both have G1 BC of 0.395) are running through a Tikka T3x CTR .223 with 1:8 twist, and a 20" barrel.
Both shoot extremely consistently for hunting; MOA or less.

At some stage, now that I seem to have the LabRadar chrono (mostly) operational again, I plan to get some more data on each load, but not for a while.

I havent tweaked the loads to get the best from them, and I havent tweaked the seating depth to chase the Lands.

Hope this helps.

[in2anity]

FTL.

Both of these pills will work just fine with AR2208. Competatively so, at least out to 300m. The 69gr is technically a little light for such a powder, but you only shed a little velocity compared with the likes of BM2/AR2206H/8208. In terms of downrange performance? Pretty hard to spot the slower speed in terms of group size. Remember accuracy is king, speed is prince. Trust the target more than the numbers.

Usually with long 223 loads, it will be the magazine that limits cartridge length. In which case the pill must be seated deeper, eating into precious volume, and thus speed. Unless you single feed of course, and seat em real long with lots of powder - then pills like the 80gr can really shine.

On that vein of thinking, in reality I never saw any benefits from the 77gr SMK vs the 69gr SMK (when loaded to shorter AR sort of length) 69gr can afford more powder and is thus zips a little faster, you see. Both equal at 300m. If the wind is being unreliable, particularly a head or tailwind bring out the 308 or 6.5 instead

Your smancy Berger pills maybe a little harder to get to group, unlike the 69gr which is famously not fussy about charge/seating depth.

glhf,
In2.

[Larry]

The Berger OTM can also be used for hunting. They are actually sold to the defense departments for battlefield use. They are the same as another Berger target projectile forget which one but had to be renamed as the original name was not tactical or scary enough. The US army wanted something special for them so rather than build another bullet with the same specs which met the army needs they just renamed batches.

[in2anity]

The Berger OTM can also be used for hunting. They are actually sold to the defense departments for battlefield use. They are the same as another Berger target projectile forget which one but had to be renamed as the original name was not tactical or scary enough. The US army wanted something special for them so rather than build another bullet with the same specs which met the army needs they just renamed batches.

Probs a pretty similar shape to the 77gr SMK then is it Larry? Just a classic tangent ogive and not especially long and pointed?

[Larry]

Dont think I have ever used them. The name just came to me I think the OG were called Juggernaughts. Couldnt be bothered looking s**t up sorry.

[in2anity]

Just reading about them - indeed they are desigend for AR platforms, Maximum COAL 2.260". Same deal as the 77gr SMK, short and squat compared with the 80.5gr Berger - yu eat into powder as they have to sit deep. They aren't magically better than the 69gr just because of the extra weight. They all copy each other - Hornady has a copy also.

[FTL]

Thank you for the advice and information. I'll let you know how I go with chronographing, pressure signs and grouping. 69 SMK are 10 thou off, with BTO on Sinclair nut of 1.7870

[in2anity]

I jump mine a fair way because they come out of a Ruger mini14 magazine this I’m limited to 2.256” COAL. They still cloverleaf at 100m off and bags, and dinner plate sized at 300m from the service sling. https://youtu.be/jUmqjsDNfwg?si=9tlqC11q1iUtu_WQ
(yes. that’s the 80.5gr, but the 69gr shoots the same at 300m in steady wind)

[SCJ429]

The benefit from the Bergers over the SMK is the consistent ogive length, I don’t bother batching my Bergers but my scores cop a beating if I didn’t do this with the SMK. I have never used this bullet but I am betting that if you jammed it into the lands and stuffed as much 2208 into the case as you can, she would shoot pretty well.

[in2anity]

The benefit from the Bergers over the SMK is the consistent ogive length, I don’t bother batching my Bergers but my scores cop a beating if I didn’t do this with the SMK.

Would they though? In reality? Sierra MK is probably the most widely consumed pill under the NRAA, because they are frankly cheaper and still pretty bloody good. Hardly knocking Bergers, but they only get you a few extra decimals over a large sample size, perhaps an integer under bad wind. Most blokes don't sort Sierras, and yet still often shoot incredible scores. I feel like sorting Sierras is indeed a right of passage (heck I've done it myself, as have many of my peers), but jeeze it's a bit of a stretch for an extremely minor gain. You reach a point where you just CBF and just go shoot. Unsorted Sierras still win comps. I save my precious Bergers for the only the biggest events...

Now I understand for benchrest style shooting and perhaps even some of the F-class flavours demands the most consistent ammunition possible. But isn't that a fairly small subset of the community? We might be talking about a factory rifle here...

[straightshooter]

The benefit from the Bergers over the SMK is the consistent ogive length, I don’t bother batching my Bergers but my scores cop a beating if I didn’t do this with the SMK. I have never used this bullet but I am betting that if you jammed it into the lands and stuffed as much 2208 into the case as you can, she would shoot pretty well.

I have made precision gauges for the purpose of measuring the consistency of the dimension for the position of the ogive where it will first touch the lands to bullet base in 308 projectiles and the dimension of ogive where it will first touch the lands to cartridge base for loaded rounds.
As for consistency of ogive to bullet base for 155 grain projectiles, for a sample size of 50 out of a box of 500 or 1000 or 1200, I found Sierra had a maximum spread of about 0.005", Berger had a spread of about 0.004", Optimus had a spread between 0.002" and 0.003" and Lapua had a spread of about 0.002".
Using COL can be very misleading for batching purposes as the consistency of where exactly the seating stem may have contacted the ogive is unknown.
Irrespective, all the Cool Kids are using Berger.

[SCJ429]

Thanks for sharing your experiences, for me, I shoot well if I batch my SMK but if I don’t I do worse. I find SMK come in a few different batches, almost as if the projectiles from three or four machines are mixed in together. I have spoken to other benchresters who shoot SMK and they batch their bullets. If you are winning your comps with SMKs and don’t batch them, keep doing what you are doing.