ADI Propellant Update

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Re: ADI Propellant Update

Post by Oldbloke » 27 May 2024, 10:10 am

Oh dear.

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Re: ADI Propellant Update

Post by Jackaroo » 27 May 2024, 10:38 am

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Re: ADI Propellant Update

Post by bigrich » 27 May 2024, 12:07 pm

Oldbloke wrote:Oh dear.

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Not wrong there
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Re: ADI Propellant Update

Post by straightshooter » 27 May 2024, 12:35 pm

Oldbloke wrote:Oh dear.

image.jpg

OMG!
Lucky you realised that it was happening?
We all better get back on topic right away.
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Re: ADI Propellant Update

Post by straightshooter » 27 May 2024, 12:39 pm

Jackaroo wrote:https://japannews.yomiuri.co.jp/politics/defense-security/20230616-116590/

An interesting read.
They are probably referring to Black Powder which is a key component in US made 155mm shells.
The last remaining major Black Powder manufacturing facility in the US burnt down a few years ago and to the best of my knowledge it hasn't been rebuilt.
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Re: ADI Propellant Update

Post by geoff » 27 May 2024, 12:50 pm

While everyone is busy pointing the finger at China, the real reason Australian government projects are a debacle is because our public service is a hollowed out wreck of an industry with only useless middle managers left. All the expertise has left to go work for consultancies, who now bill us multiple arms and legs every day to drag projects out for as long as possible.

All the re-work and "investigation" when the small stuff all stacks up to go pear shaped just equals more billable hours.

We used to have a competent, technical public service who executed these things on our behalf. Now we just have administrators who raise successive purchase orders for consultants.

But sure, china etc etc is the reason we can't make powder. The fact that Thales is there at all only serves to demonstrate this - classic hallmark of the neoliberal economics foisted upon us since the 70s and 80s. Sell sell sell, beg for scraps to come back.

We should have an economy that supports a private sector powder supply in a perfect world, but ultimately these core defence projects belong at the helm of the state.
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Re: ADI Propellant Update

Post by Oldbloke » 27 May 2024, 2:32 pm

geoff wrote:While everyone is busy pointing the finger at China, the real reason Australian government projects are a debacle is because our public service is a hollowed out wreck of an industry with only useless middle managers left. All the expertise has left to go work for consultancies, who now bill us multiple arms and legs every day to drag projects out for as long as possible.

All the re-work and "investigation" when the small stuff all stacks up to go pear shaped just equals more billable hours.

We used to have a competent, technical public service who executed these things on our behalf. Now we just have administrators who raise successive purchase orders for consultants.

But sure, china etc etc is the reason we can't make powder. The fact that Thales is there at all only serves to demonstrate this - classic hallmark of the neoliberal economics foisted upon us since the 70s and 80s. Sell sell sell, beg for scraps to come back.

We should have an economy that supports a private sector powder supply in a perfect world, but ultimately these core defence projects belong at the helm of the state.


That is certainly a major part of the issue.
They are retireing and no young blokes with (engineers, chemists) being trained.
And it is a very niche field.

Add successive governments that interfere and you have a debacle.

My understanding is the decision to demolish the old production line prior to the commissioning of the new one was a political one. Sooo, either the DOD or the Defence Minister.

I'll just add, that was against advice from the technicians.
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Re: ADI Propellant Update

Post by mickb » 27 May 2024, 4:18 pm

on_one_wheel wrote:
Oldbloke wrote:
on_one_wheel wrote:
mickb wrote:[ They are still playing by exactly the same rules we set up.


I think you need to read Sun Tzu's The Art of War, they play by their own rules and they've played the West like a violin.
s**t they've even had and probably still have CCP members working within our own government, making decisions and signing documents, those aren't rules we've made for them to play.


First I've heard that. Is it proven?


Your joking? It was prime time news, they literally loaded a mob of the commy pricks onto a plane and sent them home.
I'll have a search....

OK it was tied up with this
https://www.9news.com.au/national/chine ... 4b98ea8aa1
But unfortunately it looks like everything went hush hush over night.
I can clearly remember it being reported but there's absolutely zilch on the internet.

Next time I look there'll be no evidence on the net about smart Chinese security cameras that were installed in government facilities. :unknown:


mate diplomat/spy swapping is as old as the hills. Id agree there is a lot of infiltration and skullduggery in governments, in fact I dont think governments run countries anymore. But I;d have to add the bankers, old europe power brokers, billionaires into the mix rather than just choose the yellow boogeyman for our predicament. These guys are all in bed with each other as far as I am concerned.
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Re: ADI Propellant Update

Post by Jackaroo » 27 May 2024, 4:23 pm

Anyone actually written an email to ADI lately and asked what's going on? Did you get a reply? They usually do reply.
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Re: ADI Propellant Update

Post by Jackaroo » 27 May 2024, 4:26 pm

Just a thought.....like toilet paper and the WuFlu.....just how many tonnes would have to come onto shelves to satisfy domestic consumption taking into account the massive amount of hoarding and stockpiling that would occur and then when would the next shipment from ADI hit the shelves? and most likely that would be snapped up again aka dunny paper.
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Re: ADI Propellant Update

Post by mickb » 27 May 2024, 5:20 pm

Jackaroo wrote:Just a thought.....like toilet paper and the WuFlu.....just how many tonnes would have to come onto shelves to satisfy domestic consumption taking into account the massive amount of hoarding and stockpiling that would occur and then when would the next shipment from ADI hit the shelves? and most likely that would be snapped up again aka dunny paper.


and begs the question again why they cant figure this out, particularly AR2205. Unbelievable profits to grab. Surely it would double a normal years sales, just stasifying the hoarders. In fact regards AR2205 I'm going to lobby to call it white elephant powder because through all the excuses and defences blokes put up for us not getting pistol/shotgun powder, everyone conveniently ignores AR2205.....
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Re: ADI Propellant Update

Post by bladeracer » 27 May 2024, 5:51 pm

mickb wrote:and begs the question again why they cant figure this out, particularly AR2205. Unbelievable profits to grab. Surely it would double a normal years sales, just satisfying the hoarders. In fact regards AR2205 I'm going to lobby to call it white elephant powder because through all the excuses and defences blokes put up for us not getting pistol/shotgun powder, everyone conveniently ignores AR2205.....


Yep, that one doesn't make sense to me. It is the fastest rifle powder they offer so it doesn't seem coincidental when _all_ their powders faster than AR2205 are unavailable. Perhaps it is made on the current production line but it requires some significant alterations to the line to do so, which they're not willing to do while they're still pumping out the rifle powders?
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Re: ADI Propellant Update

Post by bladeracer » 27 May 2024, 5:58 pm

Jackaroo wrote:Anyone actually written an email to ADI lately and asked what's going on? Did you get a reply? They usually do reply.


In February I asked: "Thought I'd chase you up for an update. Is there any further news on getting AR2205 out to the baying masses?

We're wondering what makes AR2205 so different from the other rifle powders that it can't be manufactured on the same line as those. AR2205 is a single-base powder isn't it?"

But I don't have a response in my email so I've just sent it again.
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Re: ADI Propellant Update

Post by mickb » 27 May 2024, 6:58 pm

Good one blade see what they say, its a valid point
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Re: ADI Propellant Update

Post by Oldbloke » 27 May 2024, 8:06 pm

bladeracer wrote:
Jackaroo wrote:Anyone actually written an email to ADI lately and asked what's going on? Did you get a reply? They usually do reply.


In February I asked: "Thought I'd chase you up for an update. Is there any further news on getting AR2205 out to the baying masses?

We're wondering what makes AR2205 so different from the other rifle powders that it can't be manufactured on the same line as those. AR2205 is a single-base powder isn't it?"

But I don't have a response in my email so I've just sent it again.


That's a very good qn.
Could it be that it's double based since its the fastest rifle powder?
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Re: ADI Propellant Update

Post by Oldbloke » 27 May 2024, 8:26 pm

Well I just downloaded the SDS for IMR4227 (AKA 2205) and no mention of nitroglycerine.

So, single base.

https://shop.hodgdon.com/imr-4227/
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Re: ADI Propellant Update

Post by bladeracer » 28 May 2024, 11:30 am

Oldbloke wrote:Well I just downloaded the SDS for IMR4227 (AKA 2205) and no mention of nitroglycerine.

So, single base.

https://shop.hodgdon.com/imr-4227/


But perhaps they have to do additional processing to get the burn rate up?

I see that Thailand and India also produce nitrocellulose so there likely will still be supply with China cutting supply to the West. Prices might rise though and supply might be sporadic until they can increase production to the levels required. Interestingly, they produce nitrocellulose for auto paints, printing inks and dying/tanning products so if the ammunition industry buys up all their output it might cause supply issues in those areas.
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Re: ADI Propellant Update

Post by rc42 » 28 May 2024, 12:44 pm

Interestingly, Cleavers have announced this morning that they have a shipment of Alliant powder (including Red Dot and BE-86 pistol powders) due in the next few days and they are taking orders on their website.

After seeing the above Vista announcement a couple of weeks ago I wasn't expecting to see Alliant in Australia for several years.
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Re: ADI Propellant Update

Post by Billo » 29 May 2024, 5:11 pm

rc42 wrote:Interestingly, Cleavers have announced this morning that they have a shipment of Alliant powder (including Red Dot and BE-86 pistol powders) due in the next few days and they are taking orders on their website.

After seeing the above Vista announcement a couple of weeks ago I wasn't expecting to see Alliant in Australia for several years.


Previous 4 or 5 shipments have been cancelled by Alliant, I was down for some Power pistol and also AR Comp but stuff paying $185 lb for rifle powder.

Managed to find some N110 yesterday so I get back to shooting the 500S&W and 44 mag
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Re: ADI Propellant Update

Post by mickb » 08 Jun 2024, 12:15 pm

rc42 wrote:Interestingly, Cleavers have announced this morning that they have a shipment of Alliant powder (including Red Dot and BE-86 pistol powders) due in the next few days and they are taking orders on their website.

After seeing the above Vista announcement a couple of weeks ago I wasn't expecting to see Alliant in Australia for several years.



Hi mate, I only see the rifle powders listed on their site, or did the pistol powders sell out already?

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Re: ADI Propellant Update

Post by madang55 » 10 Jun 2024, 9:08 pm

Anyone been able to get onto the ADI website lately... i.e. tonight?
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Re: ADI Propellant Update

Post by No1Mk3 » 10 Jun 2024, 9:29 pm

bladeracer wrote:
mickb wrote:and begs the question again why they cant figure this out, particularly AR2205. Unbelievable profits to grab. Surely it would double a normal years sales, just satisfying the hoarders. In fact regards AR2205 I'm going to lobby to call it white elephant powder because through all the excuses and defences blokes put up for us not getting pistol/shotgun powder, everyone conveniently ignores AR2205.....


Yep, that one doesn't make sense to me. It is the fastest rifle powder they offer so it doesn't seem coincidental when _all_ their powders faster than AR2205 are unavailable. Perhaps it is made on the current production line but it requires some significant alterations to the line to do so, which they're not willing to do while they're still pumping out the rifle powders?


To those who think we are not making 2205, we are, literally making tonnes of it, but it is not available for domestic sales to reloaders. It is all used in mortar shells for Ukraine and NATO stockpiling.
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Re: ADI Propellant Update

Post by bladeracer » 10 Jun 2024, 10:14 pm

No1Mk3 wrote:To those who think we are not making 2205, we are, literally making tonnes of it, but it is not available for domestic sales to reloaders. It is all used in mortar shells for Ukraine and NATO stockpiling.


Do you have anything that supports this view?
I keep seeing it proffered but every time I ask for some facts to support it I get nothing.
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Re: ADI Propellant Update

Post by deye243 » 10 Jun 2024, 10:14 pm

No1Mk3 wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
mickb wrote:and begs the question again why they cant figure this out, particularly AR2205. Unbelievable profits to grab. Surely it would double a normal years sales, just satisfying the hoarders. In fact regards AR2205 I'm going to lobby to call it white elephant powder because through all the excuses and defences blokes put up for us not getting pistol/shotgun powder, everyone conveniently ignores AR2205.....


Yep, that one doesn't make sense to me. It is the fastest rifle powder they offer so it doesn't seem coincidental when _all_ their powders faster than AR2205 are unavailable. Perhaps it is made on the current production line but it requires some significant alterations to the line to do so, which they're not willing to do while they're still pumping out the rifle powders?


To those who think we are not making 2205, we are, literally making tonnes of it, but it is not available for domestic sales to reloaders. It is all used in mortar shells for Ukraine and NATO stockpiling.

I've beensaying this for years but no one listens AFAIC it's the same for pistol propellents as well .
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Re: ADI Propellant Update

Post by bladeracer » 10 Jun 2024, 10:28 pm

deye243 wrote:I've beensaying this for years but no one listens AFAIC it's the same for pistol propellents as well .


So, why did they release APS950 onto the market just last week?
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Re: ADI Propellant Update

Post by Oldbloke » 10 Jun 2024, 10:57 pm

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Re: ADI Propellant Update

Post by deye243 » 10 Jun 2024, 11:40 pm

bladeracer wrote:
deye243 wrote:I've beensaying this for years but no one listens AFAIC it's the same for pistol propellents as well .


So, why did they release APS950 onto the market just last week?

So people like you belive their bs .
I question why release a powder they they know is the slowest seler even 20 years ago ap100 used to sit on the shelf for a very long time if they were going to make a run of powder and release it I think it would be ap450 or ap650 .
I assume this is a cancelled order and repacked or some they found in a dark corner somewhere.
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Re: ADI Propellant Update

Post by No1Mk3 » 11 Jun 2024, 12:31 am

bladeracer wrote:
No1Mk3 wrote:To those who think we are not making 2205, we are, literally making tonnes of it, but it is not available for domestic sales to reloaders. It is all used in mortar shells for Ukraine and NATO stockpiling.


Do you have anything that supports this view?
I keep seeing it proffered but every time I ask for some facts to support it I get nothing.


Personal conversations with people in Defence and Defence Science.
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Re: ADI Propellant Update

Post by bladeracer » 11 Jun 2024, 11:46 am

deye243 wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
deye243 wrote:I've beensaying this for years but no one listens AFAIC it's the same for pistol propellents as well .


So, why did they release APS950 onto the market just last week?

So people like you belive their bs .
I question why release a powder they they know is the slowest seler even 20 years ago ap100 used to sit on the shelf for a very long time if they were going to make a run of powder and release it I think it would be ap450 or ap650 .
I assume this is a cancelled order and repacked or some they found in a dark corner somewhere.
JMHO


How are they able to produce it though, and if they are able to why would they tie up the production to do so instead of simply pouring out more of this AR2205 for the military?
Your assumption is not fact and isn't relevant. Perhaps plausible but hardly realistic.
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Re: ADI Propellant Update

Post by bladeracer » 11 Jun 2024, 11:47 am

No1Mk3 wrote:
bladeracer wrote:
No1Mk3 wrote:To those who think we are not making 2205, we are, literally making tonnes of it, but it is not available for domestic sales to reloaders. It is all used in mortar shells for Ukraine and NATO stockpiling.


Do you have anything that supports this view?
I keep seeing it proffered but every time I ask for some facts to support it I get nothing.


Personal conversations with people in Defence and Defence Science.


And these people have seen actual AR2205 containers coming through for this purpose?
I would prefer to see some actual documentation before accepting rumour as fact.
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