Total depth of shell for working up load

Reloading equipment, methods, load data, powder and projectile information.

Total depth of shell for working up load

Post by barrafishing0 » 31 Jul 2014, 12:05 pm

Awaiting my S/H Steyr scout to arrive.

Looking at reloading for accuracy and price. Didn't realize there was so much in working up a load.

Finding total length is where I struggle as a 125 gn will be seated differently from a 200gn round nose by way of there shape.

Do I need to have a total length for each projectile I seat with different gn's?

Even a same weight pill will have a different configuration in the nose to change it's depth in the chamber.

Can someone clarify this matter
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Re: total depth of shell for working up load

Post by Yelp » 31 Jul 2014, 4:06 pm

You're right, different bullets and different types of bullets of the same bullet will all have different seating depths to be 'just of the lands' which is usually ideal.

What calibre are you shooting? I assume .308 from the bullets weights you've used there (or was that just an example?).

There is an minimum and maximum coal for each calbire that you can use as a guide to start.

There are tools like the Hornady OAL gauge to measure seating depth for bullets, or you can just do it by hand with a little experimenting.

Confirm for us what calibre you're waiting on.

Also do you have any bullets chosen you're going to try? That could be helpful in giving you some ideas on what your COAL should be.
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Re: Total depth of shell for working up load

Post by Oldbloke » 31 Jul 2014, 5:07 pm

I used a cleaning rod initially but was never convinced it was very accurate. I found these instructions a while back & found they work well.

I do 5 or 6 and come up with an average but have difficulty seeing the marks left on the projectile. A candle will leave soot on the projectile & may be better than a marker.

There are several ways to measure the seating depth of your rifle. The most accurate way is through the use of a specialized seating depth tool. Another way to measure seating depth only requires a fired case, a bullet, a marker, and a set of calipers. The ogive or curved part of the bullet is the part that first
makes contact with the lands, so measuring with a bullet and fired case will only give you a measurement that is useful for bullets of the same shape.

Different bullets and bullets of different weights will have different ogive shapes, so keep this in mind when measuring and using your seating depth. If you change bullets, you will need to re-measure your seating depth with the new bullet.

Starting with a fired case, insert a bullet into the neck with your fingers. The bullet should freely slide into the case with little to no resistance. Next, lightly press the neck of the case against a hard surface to slightly dent the case mouth enough that it will grasp the bullet. Now, color the entire shank of the
bullet with a black felt-tip marker. Insert the base of the bullet into the case just enough that it is held by neck tension. Now, carefully insert the round into the camber of your rifle and close the bolt, but do not pull the trigger. As you close the bolt, the bullet will contact the lands and be pushed back into the case.

Open the bolt and carefully withdraw the case and bullet. The bullet may still be in the case, (if it is at this point I measure the overall length with a vernier caliper & repeat a few times) or it may be stuck in the barrel. If it is still in the barrel, remove it by either tapping the butt of the rifle against the bench or the ground, or push the bullet gently out with a cleaning rod. The ink on the bullet will be scraped off to the point at which the bullet wasn’t pushed into the case any further. Re-insert the bullet in the case up to the point where the ink was scraped off and measure the cartridge overall length with your calipers. This is your rifle’s seating depth with that particular bullet. Repeat the procedure several times to get a more accurate average. Now, when you want to load bullets a certain distance off of the lands, simply subtract the desired amount of “jump” from the seating depth to get the desired overall length. For example: Rifle’s

Seating depth = 3.430 Desired “jump” to lands= .015 Load cartridges to an OAL of 3.415
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Re: Total depth of shell for working up load

Post by Wilso1994 » 31 Jul 2014, 5:39 pm

Another good way is what I call find 0 with my seating depth, and by this I mean 0 bullet "jump". I simply use my lee collet neck sizing die and winde it off a bit so that I can put a projectile in an unprimed case by hand and push it in with my fingers. Don't push it in too far only enough to keep the projectile in place. Chamber the round and close your bolt in a safe environment. Take that round out of the chamber carefully and then crimp it in place. All you have to do is put that unprimed round in your press with your bs die in place and screw it down until it reaches the projectile. This will give you "0" bullet jump. This is by far not the most accurate way of doing this worked for me though so I don't see why it shouldn't work for you. After finding the right powder load (mainly stabilization) go 5 rounds at a time with a 1/4 turn DOWN each 5 rounds until you find your sweet spot (5 cent piece grouping or whatever you want). Take a set of vernier calipers and measure this length. Mark your dies. Then seat a bullet into an unprimed case and put it in a tube that has "set length .223" for example and "0 .223" for the other guide round. That's the way I did it for my .223 using 55 grain soft points. I can shoot just under MOA at 300m and a very experienced bench rest shooter got .4 at 400 with it. If I can achieve this with a howa anyone can achieve this with any gun. Hope this helps you :)
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Re: Total depth of shell for working up load

Post by Lyam » 01 Aug 2014, 1:27 pm

Wilso1994 wrote:Take that round out of the chamber carefully and then crimp it in place. All you have to do is put that unprimed round in your press with your bs die in place and screw it down until it reaches the projectile.


+1 for doing a dummy round for future reloading. Saves a bunch of time not having to find the seating depth over and over.

I drilled the primer pocket out before seating the bullet and after I had the bullet at the right seating depth I poured a few drops of epoxy through the drilled out primer pocket to really secure the bullet in there against taps from the dies every time it gets set.

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Re: Total depth of shell for working up load

Post by mausermate » 01 Aug 2014, 2:06 pm

Yes, there are a lot of differences in bullet shapes.

If you are starting out, make it simple and grab yourself a bullet comparator off the net
http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloading-equipment/measuring-tools/bullet-comparators/sinclair-hex-style-bullet-comparators-prod34262.aspx
grab a factory load, measure it and imitate the length.
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Re: Total depth of shell for working up load

Post by pmomd » 01 Aug 2014, 3:43 pm

I've always liked the Steyr Scouts, just not the price tag :lol:

Hope it works out, Barra :)
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Re: Total depth of shell for working up load

Post by 5Tom » 04 Aug 2014, 12:31 am

I bought the hornady bullet seating depth gauge and got a benchmark case purposely drilled and tapped to screw on the gauge. I wasn't very satisfied with the other methods of finding the jump distance as there were a few factors leading to inconsistent results.

The gauge allows me to affix the case on to the rod, a projectile is inserted into the case and then the case pushed into the chamber. The gauge has a pushrod that passes though the case and pushes the projectile on to the lands and then allows you to tighten the setting. Extract the gauge out of the chamber, take a measurement of the gauge and adjust your seating depth on your seating die accordingly.
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Re: Total depth of shell for working up load

Post by tom604 » 04 Aug 2014, 6:07 am

buy a comparator, your bullet/projectile sits in the hole,the comparator locks on to your verniers and the difference between projectile shape/length shows on your verniers
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Re: Total depth of shell for working up load

Post by Arth » 04 Aug 2014, 12:12 pm

How's it coming Barra?

Keen to see how the Scout shoots :D
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Re: Total depth of shell for working up load

Post by barrafishing0 » 05 Aug 2014, 8:54 pm

Guys, What fantastic info you have got for me. Everything i read previously was over my head.

308w is my calibre.

Cases are unfired lapua (small primer) Palmers?

Projectiles are sierra 165gn spitzer boat tails and a box of Barnes tsx 168 boat tail ( because i could on the day)

Powder will be AR2206H

For those who wanted to know how well its going, well it's not yet. The rifle turned up at the receiving dealer from interstate just today, but I had my PTA forwarded to me from my residential address to where we were stay for work and guess what the letter has taken 7 working days, has not arrived and we have returned home with a sick father inlaw and no PTA. I may have to apply for a new one, I think the original one has gone.

I did get to inspect the gun it looks and feels fantastic.

Sorry for late reply no service out on farm.

I know where to start now!
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Re: Total depth of shell for working up load

Post by Yelp » 08 Aug 2014, 11:04 am

barrafishing0 wrote:Projectiles are sierra 165gn spitzer boat tails and a box of Barnes tsx 168 boat tail ( because i could on the day)


You'll see with those how much of a difference there can be with different projectiles.

As everyone has said there are a few different tools or techniques for finding the right seating depth, I'll try and give you a bit of general info though to help you understand the concept of your seating depth though...

Standard COAL (cartridge overall length) for the .308 is 2.800". The Game Kings are a pretty good example of an "normal" size and shape bullet and if you seated them so your COAL was 2.800" they'll probably be about right and the bullet would be 'just off' the lands.

That's a bit of an assumption but for the sake of example lets say the above is correct and when loaded like that the GK's are in the sweet spot.

The Barnes bullets are about 1.5mm longer and have a sharper OGIVE (the cone/front of the bullet). Because of this if you load a cartridge with the Barnes to be the same 2.800" length the OGIVE will be further back from the lands so the bullet will have a small amount of 'jump' into the throat when fired. This jump can reduce accuracy of the cartridge.

Because of this the Barnes bullet would need to be seated higher for a longer COAL to bring the OGIVE up to be closer to the lands.

This is a picture of a pair of Berger bullets off their website but you'll get the idea.

berger-ogive.jpg
berger ogive seating depth
berger-ogive.jpg (54.77 KiB) Viewed 4863 times


Your Barnes bullet would be the left and your Game Kings would be the right bullet if you get what I mean. As you can see if the left bullet was seated to the same depth as the right bullet the OGIVE would be too far back.

All make sense?

As said there are a few assumptions and general points in there, you'll still have to find exactly what your rifle likes but I hope that clears up the general points for you?

Let me know.
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Re: Total depth of shell for working up load

Post by barrafishing0 » 09 Aug 2014, 7:12 pm

Thanks Yelp for the drawing and your explanation, you have hit the nail on what I was asking. This Ogive is not easily defined and you photo shows this.

Is there a way of determining the point as which it is called the ogive of a particular projectile. If I was to enter a projectile point first in to a fresh case to the point that it stops be its ogive? Being the shell is 308, the bore is 308 would the point of contact on the projectile be where it curves away enough to be its shoulder or ogive?

Or do I just pay money for a tool/calipers that read it. The deeper you go with reloading the more I should follow my previous replies on finding coal with a push back projectile into a loose case, bring it off the lands may be .002 in .004in .006 inch for starters, waist $100 of ammo into paper getting used to the gun and never ever change load, projectile or powder. But what if I got a chance to hunt deer or chase long range goats? It doesn't end this shooting stuff does it.

Thanks.
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Re: Total depth of shell for working up load

Post by Yelp » 11 Aug 2014, 11:43 am

You're basically right, where the curve of the bullet ends and the straight body behinds that's the end of the ogive. Like this...

spitzer2.png
spitzer2.png (14.27 KiB) Viewed 4728 times


Putting a projectile in upside down won't quite work like that though. The neck of your brass will be a fraction smaller so there is tension to hold the bullet in place. Putting the bullet in upside down it will stop slightly before the body of the bullet begins.

There isn't really any point in doing that though other than curiosity.

Just to make sure... It sounds like you're trying to get the bottom of the bullets ogive to line up with the top of the case neck. Is that what you're asking? Because you don't need to do that. It's fine if part of the straight body is above the neck.

It's about getting the top of the bullet to me just off the rifling. If this means some of the bullets body is above the neck that's perfectly common. I guess you've got that by now? Let me know if I misunderstood and if we're on the same page.

About the calipers, you don't need to spend a fortune on these. I use a $30 pair from Bunnings and they work fine.

Calipers are very useful. Once you've worked out the right seating depth and recorded it it's much easier to reset it the next time. You just put your seating die in and seat a bullet a little higher then measure it with the calipres and adjust the seating die down. Just repeat a few times on the same cartridge, pushing the bullet down and measuring each time until you reach the right depth then lock in the die and seat all your bullets.

I'm not sure what you're asking about the deer or long range goat hunting? The COAL of a cartridge is matched to a rifle to shoot as accurately as possible. It doesn't change at range though. You wouldn't set one COAL for close range deer hunting and a different one for long range goat hunting. Is that what you meant?

Let me know whatever we haven't covered and I'll try answer it for you.
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Re: Total depth of shell for working up load

Post by barrafishing0 » 11 Aug 2014, 5:52 pm

Thanks Yelp, your info is great, we are now heading to the correct reloading path.

The comment about deer shooting was tongue in cheek and referred to, in a perfect world we would be using one load, worked up only once, shooting the same pill every time but there is always a twist. Different styles of shooting and different game so we change loads, and projectiles to suit hence needing to know all the tricks to get each load hit the mark.

Thanks again, everyone has given me great help.
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Re: Total depth of shell for working up load

Post by Yelp » 12 Aug 2014, 8:47 am

I'm with you now :)

You're right, working up multiple loads can be a pain.

What can you do though. Happy shooting.
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